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-------- TML Message #663 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 663
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 89 14:03:01 PDT
From: gazis@halley.arc.nasa.gov
Subject: musings inspired by recent geological activity



Greetings,

     Things are slowly getting back to normal out here in the Bay
Area.  A different form of normal, perhaps, than prevailed nine
days ago, but normal nonetheless.
     So far, my informal poll shows that the entire population of
Silicon Valley was on an editor at 5:04 last Tuesday.  About half
of them made a frantic effort to save their files and before they
took cover.  There's a lesson here about the the effects of training
and force of habit.  There's also a lesson about different forms of
reality.  One envisions a hapless starcrew frantically consulting a
manual as his vessel disintigrates around him:  "No, wait!  I did 
not mean to dodge into the flightpath of that missile!  Perhaps I
can recall an earlier version of my files in which the ship has not 
yet been destroyed!"

     The large-scale structural test which we conducted on our 
buildings last week raises an interesting question?  How many of
you folk incorporate random large-scale disasters in your game?
What form do these disasters take?  Galactic core explosions?
Supernovae?  Asteroid impacts?  Earthquakes?  Perhaps even local
school board elections?  What are the effects of these disasters?
On the hapless player characters?  On the unsung cast of millions
(or billions) of NPCs who suffer and die to provide the necessary
background?  Is it possible for player characters to influence the
course of events?  Do they?  For good or for ill?
     The last such event I recall in The Eight Worlds was the Great 
Allanlok Spaceport Fire.  This was an entirely accidental event for
which the PCs actually bore some responsibility:
     A vessel they were escorting lost power on liftoff from Mor,
the major (in fact the only) city on Allanlok.  The hapless pilot
lost control and crashed.  A random roll for location placed the
crash site in the middle of the spaceport fuel depot which, alas,
lacked the sophisticated safety devices such as might be found on
a more advanced world.  The liguid hydrogen tanks storage ruptured, 
vented their contents, and exploded one by one in a cataclysmic chain
reaction.  The resulting fires spread through the warehouse district
and the surrounding slums and shanties to reach the city itself.  
     The fires raged for three days.  One third of the city was 
destroyed.  More than 20,000 people lost thier lives.
     The PCs were extremely active in the relief effort.  They helped
to evacuate the city, they helped to build firebreaks, and they flew 
water-bombing missions.  Several PCs lost their lives, including three 
engineers who were aboard the doomed merchant ship (they knew the ship
had problems with its drives so they came on board to help with the 
liftoff, hence the responsibilty) when it performed its fatal
demonstration of Newtonian mechanics.

     Disasters provide an excellent (if somewhat macabre) source of
scenarios.  Consider the following example:
     The Imperial Naval Station on Decus VII receives word that the 
entire planet of Vanderleigh suffered a local school board election.  
The Imperial task force is not available:  Every ship is out of 
commision (excuse me... the ships are at Readiness Level Charlie) until 
necessary repairs can be conducted on their tomato peelers.  Vanderleigh 
is on its own... unless... a free trader can be pressed into service.  
As fate and the GM would have it, the only suitable vessel belongs to a 
set of player characters.  Over their protests, they are comissioned as 
members of the Imperial Auxiliary Transport Reserve and forced to fly a 
relief mission.  They have many adventures, humor, drama, and pathos 
abound, but last they are all consumed by local politics and die.  The 
players all abandon the game in anger.  Alone, forlorn, friendless, the 
luckless GM decides upon a scheme of world conquest.  He draws upon his 
expertise as a TRAVELLER GM to build a working time transport which he 
uses to travel to Post WWII Japan.  Working behind the scenes, he 
rebuilds the shattered nation into a major world economic power under 
his hidden but absolute control.  Soon he will be ready to implement 
the second phase of his sinister plan.  The only threat to his scheme 
for world domination come from a brave space physicist who attempts to 
conceal a warning in a humorous message regarding Role Playing Games.  
But before he can finish this warning he is bgjhvk;rqenblbl............

Paul R. Gazis                        
gazis@hal.span.nasa.gov   or
gazis%hal.span@ames.arc.nasa.gov   or
(408) 736-0764 (h)



-------- TML Message #664 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 664
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 89 07:35:43 -0400
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!uunet.uu.net!att!ihlpf!zonker@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Realistic Weapons


I had to respond to this article.  First let me say that I think that GDW
on the whole has produced some of the best combat gaming systems ever done.
For example: the Citadel, Avalanche, Crusader, Striker, Command Decision, 
Twilight 2000 and First Battles games all have very good combat systems.
So I think that I have to disagree with Mark on most of what he states in
his article.  But what constitutes a good system to me probably doesn't
touch base with Mark.  I prefer systems that emphasize the command side
of combat to the technological, it sounds like Mark prefers the opposite:
>For a start, I have had to develop my own damage system--based not on
>statistics, for the most part, but on (a) location of hit on a person's
>body and (b) the actual damage caused by the weapon.
Realism is subjective and most gamers seem to feel a system is realistic
only when they can be a Field Marshall and a Private in the same game.
(Well maybe that is a bit of an exaggeration, but hopefully you'll get my
drift).  There is also a problem (as you said) with encumbrance, the more
detailed you get with a set of rules the less playable it is.  For example,
TAC Force is an extremely realistic modern armor system, but it is
practically unplayable due to the detail i.e. a minimum of an hour to work
out a minute game time.  Given that a typical modern action lasts 15 to 20
minutes...  However, the game is very worthwhile as a reference.  If you
want to work out individual damage then you have will be limiting the size
of your games to probably the squad level.  Which may work fine for the
kind of campaign your running, but a publisher can't tailor their rules to
your situations only you can do that.

As for GDW specifically I have great respect for Frank Chadwick's work and less
for Mark Millers.  This is mainly due to the fact that Frank spends more time
tuning his systems by running them past outside playtesters.  He seems more open
to other peoples opinions and more in touch with his audience.

As for weapons ratings this is always subjective, and as for bows specifically
I believe the bow in the rules is meant to be the normal primitive short
bow.  I think stats were given in one of the JTAS for long bows and
composite bows.  We did quite a bit of low tech striker and that rating
works out correctly.  Why do you think everyone in the world threw these away
for smoothbore muskets which have an accuracy when shooting at a man of 30 feet?
With most bows large die mods should be needed to use them at all effectively.
Modern Hunting bows may be a different matter and if that is where you have
experience add an appropriate rule for it.

I don't think anyone has ever not had to make provisions in a game for what he
feels is the right balance.  The rules for Traveller are not meant to be a
Bible, only to be a guide or a base from which to start.  We constantly made
up new skills while playing Traveller.  I redesigned the computers when I ran
Traveller games, because I know about computers, they don't.  Their rules were
OK for most people, but since I have specific knowledge I expanded the rules
till I felt comfortable.  Even Frank Chadwick frequently makes up new rules
as we go along.  For example last winter we began running a Korean War
scenario for Command Decision called East of Chosen.  We were faced with
the problems of human wave assaults for the first time.  So we made up
rules that fit.  Now I don't know what Mark feels is improbable or wrong,
but I don't see how he can say they have no clue about what they're doing.
Especially since he offered us no reason to believe that he does.  If you
don't like a combat system and want to make up a new one that fits what you
feel is the way to go, so what?  This doesn't mean the old system is wrong,
it's not a black and white situation.  Especially since this is science fiction
and who really knows how it works or even if it could ever work.  If you don't
like the abstract damage system for wounds, then design your own.  There are
plenty of guides out there.  Twilight 2000 has a rating based on limbs, torso
and head.  There is even a game called Bio 1 which works out for bullets
what got hit and how much the character bleeds.


					Non Cuniculus Est,
					    Tom H.



-------- TML Message #665 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 665
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 89 11:26 EST
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: Jim Cunningham, what's yer address?!


[I have been reaching Jim through the roundabout:
	jcunning%gsliss%gslisa@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (-Jim Cunningham)
Good luck! -- James]

see above.

i want high passage 2 thru 5, dammit!

also, does dgp's early adventures reprint have the pages of #1 you're missing?

metlay



-------- TML Message #666 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 666
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 89 11:32 EST
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: On Mark's search for realism (ick) in combat



Mark:

I've used the GDW combat system for over ten years, and I agree that it has
a lot of gaps where combat realism is concerned. However, there are two 
considerations that override a greater attention to realism: first is the
up side that playability at the cost of realism makes gaming more fun in the
long run for groups that are more interested in role-playing than in realistic
combat per se, and second is the down side that a truly realistic combat system
involving anything more dangerous than paint pellet pistols would be gory,
painfully short, and no fun at all for anyone who cared about their characters.
This is the fundamental difficulty of RPGs involving combat; if they're at all
realistic, they may still be playable but they WON'T be fun. (I cite the game
of PHOENIX COMMAND by Leading Edge as a shining example of this; on average,
you lose your character on the first hit.)

I think the MegaTraveller combat system is a huge improvement over this, as it
deliberately breaks combat into two parts: the first, combat itself, deals in
broad strokes, dealing generalized damage and trauma that either knocks you 
out, kills you, or not. Then, after the fighting's over and the medics can get
to you, the extent and form of the damage is assessed. The Traveller's Digest
has a nifty article on what happens next (prostheses, cloning new body parts,
bionics, etc.). It's in Issue 13, I believe: the Terra issue. I'm not a realism
freak: Barry Nakazono broke me of that habit five years ago at a PHOENIX
COMMAND playtest. My parties avoid combat for all of the right reasons, and 
because the people in my game aren't in it for the combat anyway. 

If you insist on realism in the MegaTrav system, the Travellers' Digest 
articles are vital; the rules, as they are, won't tell you how to reassemble
a character who's been turned into taco filling. (Also, it provides a very 
clear, consistent, and time-efficient means of determining exactly what 
happens to a character who blows a survival roll during career generation, 
that improves upon "he has to muster out now" and really beats "oh dear, he's
dead, start over." Has anybody noticed that Scouts would have a 50% attrition
rate per year otherwise? The Navy and Marines have it easy!)

Good luck on your search for the ultimate in realistic combat systems: if you
find it, let me know, but I don't think it's worth searching for in my own
games.

metlay




-------- TML Message #667 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 667
Subject: library science and arms control
Date: Thu Oct 26 13:22:54 1989
From: richard@agora.hf.intel.COM (Richard Johnson)



{My apologies for forgetting your name... the "traveller relic"
with the old TD issues...}

I think it was James Cunningham mentioned that he was a humble
library science student majoring in arms control.  Anyone have
some thoughts on how arms control is working (and/or failing)
in the Imperium?

It seems to be working with the Zhodani, but because *they*
don't care - humaniti is still hesitant.  It seems to be
a cosmic [sic] failure near Capital.

Obviously fracturing the Imperium for personal gain is not
popular.  War is not good economically (except for a few).
War is not good for the populous (except for a few).  War is not,
in general, good for humaniti.

Maybe Mr. Cunnignham (I sure hope I got it right) can share
some thoughts on arms control, and why people in the fture
are no more philospohically advanced than we.

Richard Johnson




-------- TML Message #668 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 668
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 89 20:30:29 -0500
From: (Mark Gellis) f3w@mentor.cc.purdue.edu



Ooops, missed the subject line...

Well, I'm glad that my comments on the combat system gathered responses,
even if they were negative.  Actually, that's probably my fault; I did 
come on a little strong.  (I must have been in a particularly bad mood.
My apologies.)

I thought I should add a little more to give people a better idea.  Basically,
the thing I object to is that, assuming the average character has 18 to 25
hit points, a single round from a pistol, and even from most rifles or shot-
guns, is not likely to do more than "wow, I've lost some hit points; gee,
maybe I shouldn't charge so many machinegun nests."

I am VERY aware of the reality-playability problem; one of my goals has been
to design a combat system that has as much of both as possible.  (I think
my bad mood was a result of some of the sacrifices I have had to make as far
as reality is concerned in order to manage the playability.  Of course,
ultimately, the playability is the primary concern.)

Suffice that now, if you shot or stabbed with anyone bigger than a 6 mm.
pistol (like a .25, but with actual killing power) or a boot knife, you can
be in serious trouble.  Just like real life.  Even the little weapons can
kill on a lucky shot.  Shotguns and rifles?  These were weapons designed
for (a) killing large animals like bears and (b) overkill on medium-sized
animals like humans.

On the up side, armor (kevlar, etc.) is fairly cheap in my gameworld.  And
it will stop most small arms, or at least reduce a killing wound to a bruise
(and maybe a broken rib).  Also, hospitals in the future may still be run by
incompetent humans, but they have much better machines.  I'm a trained first
aider, so I consider "death" as "when your heart stops and your brain
starts to die from oxygen lack."  If someone dies and you get them to a
support unit in the first five or ten minutes, they will recover with no
problem.  (Hell, we can do that NOW.)  Also, just like in real life, if
you have a trained medic in the party, most wounds that would be fatal 
without medical attention can be treated to the point where they are no
longer life-threatening.  The character will have to go to the hospital
to finish patching things up, but they will live.  My basic rule of thumb
is that serious wounds without medical attention can kill up to 90% of
the time, but WITH medical attention, only kill about 10% of the time.
(By the way, it takes a long time to bleed to death unless you have been
hit in the aorta or femoral artery, so medics usually have plenty of time
to crawl over and work on people.)

Medical stuff...please use these ideas if you like them...Medical drug
slows bleeding (or stops it if it is minor) so medics have more time to
get to you; it also prevents shock.  Also, portable cranial support units
("brain boxes") are available to keep a brain alive when the body can't
do it anymore.  True, you have to wait for donor body to show up, but
at least you're alive.

Last but not least, and perhaps most interesting to you people, I hope,
is how all this affects the gaming.  There is a really interesting effect
when players know that violence is bad for their health...they think a lot
more.  The unspoken rules in my gameworld, one of the lessons I try to
teach, is that shooting and stabbing people are not really desirable things
(although they may sometimes be necessary).  Killing is dangerous, messy,
unpleasant, and even if you get out of the firefight, there can be legal
reprecussions.  (Often, these are more horrifying than the firefight, 
as anyone who has dealt with lawyers can tell you.)  So, I want people to
THINK before they get into a firefight.  And if they choose to do so,
they should THINK about how to get the first shot off (the second unspoken
rule is that if you have to kill someone, do it right).  

By the way, I don't run my world with the intention to slaughter my player
characters.  My gameworld is dangerous, but if you use common sense, even
in "commando" scenarios where you know there will be a lot of shooting
(NPCs are usually people with skills at the nominal level, and most of 
them are of only average intelligence and physical abilities), you have
an excellent chance of coming out without a scratch.

Well, I've rambled on far too long.  Take care, all; I look forward to
further discussions.

    Mark

Disclaimer: I accept the responsibility...but not the blame.




-------- TML Message #669 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 669
From: (Adrian Hurt) adrian%cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Realistic Weapons
Date: Sun, 24 May 37 8:49:46 BST


> I would be interested in hearing how the people on the mailing list have
> reacted to the various combat systems created by GDW, and the modifications
> they have come up with to deal with aspects they did not like.

I'm  probably in a minority here, but I am not much interested in exactly where
a character gets hit. I quite liked the old Striker/Azhanti High Lightning
systems, in which you rolled 2D for damage, modified by weapon penetration and
target armour, and got a result of No Effect, Wounded, Unconscious or Dead. The
only concession to detail I made was that instead of applying those literally,
I used the damage die codes from Mercenary, and applied damage to PC stats. It
may not have been very realistic, but it was quick, and it worked to the extent
that a big tough PC could take more punishment than a little wimpy PC. Instead
of using the original GDW method, I simply added the character's STR and END
together for hit points to unconsciousness, and used DEX as further hit points
before death. Finally, the damage taken was multiplied by a factor depending on
the penetration roll. If the penetration table said "Wounded", the factor was
1; for "Unconscious", it was 1.5; for "Dead", it was 2. The main effect of this
was that even a slight hit from a PGMP now became lethal.

If a location was needed, it'd be referee's discretion, based upon such things
as how good the damage roll was, what would suit the story best, and whether or
not the referee was feeling mean at the time.

Maybe we didn't have characters queuing up in front of the medic knowing just
where they'd been hit; but it meant we could get the fight over with relatively
quickly, and get on with the next bit.

 "Keyboard? How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk



-------- TML Message #670 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 670
From: (Steven J Owens) scratch@unix.cis.pitt.edu
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 89 10:49:08 EDT
Subject: Arms Control in Traveller


>I think it was James Cunningham mentioned that he was a humble
>library science student majoring in arms control.  Anyone have
>some thoughts on how arms control is working (and/or failing)
>in the Imperium?

	From several of the traveller campaigns I've seen, if you're talking
about firearms, control is non-existent! :-)  On the other hand, the No-Nukes
laws seem very firmly in place... even in the campaign I'm in now, in which the
players are caught between two power forces - two contenders for the imperial
throne.  On the other hand (hey, this is traveller, we can have three handed
aliens...) the fighting hasn't gotten truly intense yet, and the players are
avoiding the whole mess (or trying to) so we may never know.

>It seems to be working with the Zhodani, but because *they*
>don't care - humaniti is still hesitant.  It seems to be
>a cosmic [sic] failure near Capital.

	What do you mean, "they don't care?"  I'm running a Zhodani character
right now, (and doing it accurately, I think) and while "we" aren't too worried
about the internal power struggles of you imperials, that's dependent upon just
that point - internal.  On the other hand, I have the feeling the Consulate 
would have strong interests if the fighting spilled over, accidentally or on
purpose, into Zhodani space.  

>Maybe Mr. Cunnignham (I sure hope I got it right) can share
>some thoughts on arms control, and why people in the fture
>are no more philospohically advanced than we.

	I'd be interested in Mr. Cunningham's thoughts also, but I have the
only answer that counts for your last point - if the people in the future were
more philosophically advanced than we are, nobody would be playing Traveller.
After all, why are we doing this?  For fun!  And let's face it, a world where
everything is perfect isn't much fun to role-play in.  Most campaigns are based
on conflict, between the players and other forces.  Remove the conflict, and
you remove the basis for the campaign.

	Besides which, I'm not so sure that simply being further along the
time-line must mean that they are more philosophically advanced.  Granted, our
civilization is in many ways nicer than civilization a few hundred years ago 
(for example, nicer about children & old folks, about racial equality, etc) but
is this necessarily a factor of how much time w've had for philsophical
advancement, or couldn't it simply be a factor of convenience - most cultures
weren't too attached to young kids because it was too likely they'd die young.
As medicine and living conditions have improved, the death rate has decreased,
and parents become more attached to their kids, etc.  


   Steven J. Owens  |  Scratch@PITTVMS  |  scratch@unix.cis.pitt.edu

"Okay, Major Jonathan "Wrong-Is" Wright rubs his magic ring of Imperial
 Intervention and twenty stormtroopers with battledress and gauss rifles
 pop out of the microwave oven..." 
 
	- Sean T. Grape, in a truly bizarre traveller campaign...





-------- TML Message #671 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 671
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 89 11:55:28 EDT
From: (Dan Corrin) dan@engrg.uwo.ca
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Realistic Weapons


I agree with Adrian, that most people (in a game) don't care exactly
where they get hit, however I do find that a hit location system important
to some characters.

(e.g. The Sternmetal villain reaches for the alarm button, Susan shoots with
her snub pistol...(roll, roll)...and wounds the director, who proceeds to 
press the button anyway)

This type of situation calls for a method of hit location, either as an
"I aim for the director's hand" or "He's not hit criticaly, where do you 
hit?...(roll)...you hit his arm, the button is not pressed!"

However, you wouldn't need it every time. Quite often in a games that has
hit location, I ignore it unless it is important at that time.

	-Dan
	
dan@engrg.uwo.ca   Dan Corrin, System Manager, Mechanical Engineering, UWO
...!watmath!julian!engrg!dan  "Friends don't let friends drive Chryslers" -JPS



-------- TML Message #672 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 672
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 89 11:45:14 -0500
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!uxc.cso.uiuc.edu!gslisa!gsliss!jcunning@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: arms control and things





As far as arms control in the Traveller universe goes, I don't recall
anyone ever presenting anything along those lines. The closest thing
I can remember is that there are demilitarized zones between the
Imperium and the Zhodani. The Fifth Frontier War began for the
Imperium with the shocking news that a Zhodani fleet was present
at Ruie/Regina, and to get there said fleet would have violated the
zone. See the news reports from Journal 9, which were also reprinted
in a later issue (about 17ish) and in the rules manual of the Fifth
Frontier War board game.

Arms control could certainly be an interesting topic to explore.
Thinking about it, I see a major problem: verification would be
impossible, just as it was in the major naval treaties in the
1920s. In fact, it is only with the advancement of recon satellites
that any form of verification is possible here and now at all, and
even this is not perfect-- nuclear warheads are easy to hide, and
there is no way to peek into the warhead buses of missiles (which 
aren't as easy to hide) to see how many warheads are actually in 
there (you have to guess).

I see some interesting adventuring possibilities here. A team
of adventurers could be hired to investigate the faith of a
nation or world (independent by position or because of the
Rebellion) which has a treaty with its neighbor. All kinds of
neat spy stuff.

I'll probably come up with some more ideas in the months ahead,
as I'll be finishing my library degree in December and starting
my second masters (real world? Hah! Forget it!) in political science
specializing in arms control. Right now I work in the library here
at U of I which houses the Arms Control Collection. Pays the rent.


As far as HP back issues goes, all I need is $1 each to cover
postage. I've got a few copies of each issue here with me; if
I run out I'll have to get some next time I visit my folks.
They'll be happy-- the boxes of issues are piled up in the garage,
and I refuse to part with them. Please note that I'll need your
"real" address to send you anything. My "real" address is:

Jim Cunningham
1604 Coronado Drive #7
Champaign, IL  61820


Have a good weekend folks.





-------- TML Message #673 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 673
From: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se (Bertil Jonell)
Subject: Re: The Horrors of Realistic Weapons
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 89 8:11:35 MET DST


[This came to traveller-request@dadla.wr.tek.com, looks like it was
meant for traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com.  Watch those automatic reply
headers! -- James]

> I would be interested in hearing how the people on the mailing list have
> reacted to the various combat systems created by GDW, and the modifications
> they have come up with to deal with aspects they did not like.

About a year ago I remade the MegaT combatsystem with the Twilight system
as an pattern. I'll try to dig it up somtime after the exams are done.

Very shortly it went like this:
To hit is, like before, a task and the difficulties per range are the same
with one exeption: All long weapons have Difficult on Short range.
(Try handling a rifle when wrestling!) Also, to separate the weapons alittle,
they had extra positive DM's on some ranges for some weapons
(Actually more simple than it sounds)
When you hit someone (or somebeing B-) the damage done was random. (ie: 4D
was "Toss 4 dice" and not "4 woundpoints") The damage the person sustained
was what was left when you subtracted what the armor absorbed.
There were also hit locations with capacities based on the UPP of the target.

This system worked quite well for small-scale combat, < 10 participants
on each side and not too many Autofire weapons with Dangerspace.

> (I have a feeling that 
> for the most part, however, people will agree that GDW combat systems leave
> something to be desired.)

Yupp!

>      Mark

- -bertil-

- -- 
Bertil K K Jonell @ Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg
NET: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se 
VOICE: +46 31 723971 / +46 300 61004     "Don`t worry,I`ve got Pilot-7"
SNAILMAIL: Box 154,S-43900 Onsala,SWEDEN      (Famous last words)      
"There's Medellin. Drugs 'R Us, all in that one little city in the valley.
One nuke could settle things..." Tom Clancy 'Clear and Present Danger'






-------- TML Message #674 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 674
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 89 12:48:07 EDT
From: ("William B. Morrison") morrison@pyr.gatech.edu


Date: Fri, 27 Oct 89 09:26:09 PDT
From: Bill Morrison (Coordinator) <morrison@pyr.gatech.edu>
Reply-To: morrison@pyr.gatech.edu
Subject: Traveller System Generation Group Digest V1 #1
To: traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com

Traveller System Generation Fri, 27 Oct 89       Volume 1 : Issue   1 

Today's Topics:
                         (And a proposal...)
                          3D space and usml
                          Area of Knowledge
                           Background? Me??
                                choice
                         Computer Background
        Discussion group membership and programming workload 
                  Gensec, Mapsub and more ramblings
                  In reponse to Bill's msg (2 msgs)
                                 Maps
                           Maps, maps, maps
                          Maps and 3D space
                Maps and 3D space (And a proposal...)
                                  ok
                               profile
                        Re: What we should do
               Request for background of group members
                            Starting point
         Welcome [Comments on what we should do & background]
               Welcome [What we should do & background]
             Welcome to the Star System Discussion Group
                        What's in the works...

***************************************************************************
** STAR SYSTEM DIGEST: star system generation, storage, and display.     **
** All followups on this topic should be sent to morrison@pyr.gatech.edu **
** They will be edited for clarity and resent to the Traveller Mailing   **
** List in a following digest.                                           **
***************************************************************************

First, I would like to give *much* thanks to Dan Corrin who made this 
issue of the Star System Generation Group digest possible by supplying
me with a copy of his mailbox after I blew mine away.

- --Bill Morrison
  morrison@pyr.gatech.edu
  Traveller Star System Group Coordinator
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: dan@engrg.uwo.ca
Subject: (And a proposal...)
<Bill>
>    1) That we integrate existing software into one comprehensive
>       package to generate systems in accordance with MegaTraveller
>       guidelines. The existing software that (I think) we should
>       integrate are James' mapsub program (PostScript output), and
>       the "real" system generator. We would have to tweak the ...

I disagree. I have difficulty following the "real" system generator,(RSG)
plus how do we put in the data for the major planet? I was thinking of the
opposite use MegaTraveller (and WBH) then add elements from the RSG or other
systems to make it a unique product.

> 
> Right now, we need a working prototype to give us something to play
> with. ...

Yes but we need some discussion to get the right prototype to start with.
perhaps a vote on some of the issues would give us a starting point...

- -Dan

- ------------------------------

From: burdick@hpindl1.hp.com
Subject: 3D space and usml
>Last, are we going to open the 3D can of worms? It wouldn't be
>*that* difficult to do and it would be easy to implement realistic
>stellar distances, but there are a *lot* of Jump-1 shipd out there
>that could very easily get stuck in the sectors that we would generate.

I like the idea of using 3D space, but haven't been able to figure out how
to create maps that are both interesting and readable.  I don't think that
Jump-1 ships would be affected too much, since the mean separation of stars
would not be changed.

All of this hierarchical universe-building sounds an awful lot like the
Universe Simulation Mailing List (usml-request@hc.dspo.gov).  For those of
you with internet access, try ftp'ing to hc.dspo.gov (192.12.184.4) to
check out the usml archives there.

                                                -matt

- ------------------------------

From: kstclair@jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU
Subject: Area of Knowledge
(A bit late, but...)

General:  Astronomy (college level, 1 year, plus casual reading)
          System formation/planetology (basic familiarity)
          Geology (formation of continents, landforms, etc; 1
            term, plus reading)

I have two VERY good textbooks on these subjects (the system formation
subsumed under astronomy); my experience is not deep, but I can do
basic reality checks.

Programming:  BASIC (several years, casual)
              PASCAL (2 terms)

Obviously, not a heavy programmer-type.
8 )

- ------------------------------

From: morrison@pyr.gatech.edu
Subject: Background? Me??
My turn. I received my BSICS (Information & Computer Science) almost
3 yrs. ago from Georgia Tech. I've been programming for about 7 yrs.
in Pascal, Modula-2, C, and FORTRAN. Most of my background is in
networking and software engineering. The project I'm on now has
me dabbling in X11R3 and systems programming. Simply put, the only
experience that I have that will be worthwhile to the effort will be
software engineering and I'm sure everyone else has the same experience there.

- --Bill

- ------------------------------

From: violin!plb@uunet.uu.net
Subject: Computer Background
uunet!allegra!violin!plb

[ stuff deleted ]
>> 
>> Now for my questions:
>> 
>> What machine is everyone working on...I have a sun 3/60 on my desk, and

Myself I am working on a HP 9000/850 super mini but I have access to all sorts
of Vaxes and 3Bxx machines.


>> 1) Political (only useful if sector/subsector is not owned by a single
>> government as most of the Imperium was)

A lot of my frontier worlds that lay outside the imperium (actually 99% of my 
own campaign) falls into that category.

>> 2) Jump maps - There is a section of the old rules describing the
>> connectivity of stars based on their starport and distance. I take this
>> to be a transportation map, which is significantly different from the
>> usual Xboat maps
>> 3) Trade maps - A lot of worlds are good trade partners while others aren't
>> (I think the trade and commerce group would like somthing like this with
>> all the good trade routes marked perhaps as weighted vectors?)

As well, some of my worlds have import quotas and restrictions.  In one of my 
worlds, tea is a very valuable commodity.  Too much of it imported at any one
time causes enough of an outflow of cash and goods to cause problems with the 
economy.  

>> 4) Navigation maps - Stuff as much data onto the map as possible for players
>> to make visual comparison of destination worlds (This is the closest to the

Here you would want to mark navigational beacons and the like as well as post 
the frequencies that are used by the starport control authorities as well as 
transponder requirements...

>> current maps)
>> 5) Strategic Maps - (This is still a foggy concept) Presumably the military
>> would want different information on their maps than the civilians...
>> 

Pete

- ------------------------------

From: macgyver@cis.ohio-state.edu
Subject: choice
	Like Bill, I am also in favor of the first choice. Except the project
leader is going to be difficult to pick. And it would be hard for the leader
to decide who does what too.

- ------------------------------

From: dan@engrg.uwo.ca
Subject: Computer Background
I have been programming in C for 7 years, none for C++. I have a B.Sc from
UWO, and I am finishing my Master's Thesis in a dual concentration:
Software Engineering and Computer Graphics. My specialty is Visual Programming
I have been on 3 fairly large projects, once as chief programmer, and once
as Project leader. (Note: I don't particularly want to lead this project.)
Most of my experience is on Sun's and a Vax750 running 4.2BSD. My current
project involves me with translating a set of UNIX programs to the PC (Ick).

	-Dan

- ------------------------------

From: morrison@pyr.gatech.edu
Subject: Discussion group membership and programming workload 
Currently, the discussion group has a membership of 12 people,
not all of whom are Computer Science/programmer types (not at      
least from what I understand). First we need to determine how       
many people in the group have programming skills (software
engineering, structured design, etc) -- just to get things
going. Then we can approach this in several ways:

   1) Pick one of the programmers as lead (perhaps a co-lead also),
      and have those individuals come up with a preliminary design
      and then discuss the design with the list and then make coding
      assignments to the remaining programmers. Those who are not
      programmers will be the test/evaluation group and will be
      responsible for making sure that the progam does everything      
      it is supposed to, and also try their hardest to get the
      program to crash (we can't turn out a bad system ;-).

   2) A more "free-for-all" approach (everybody does everything).
      Everybody does the prelim design, evaluates each others    
      work to get rge final design. Then, everybody codes a
      part.

There may be other options, but over the internet, I don't think
we can refine it much. Opinions?

I am in favor of #1 -- but those involved in the preliminary design
(everybody evaluates that to get the final design) must communicate.
Once they have a preliminary design, the discussion group evaluates     
that and either rejects it, approves it, or can make changes to get      
what they want. Once we have a final design, we can mix and match
people with modules to code (according to what they want to do, ability,
etc). This is the best way to ensure a modular system.

Now this will obviously have to be adjusted. Not all the programmers
may have the time to program, and I' sure there are those who don't
program as a profession but would love to work on the prelim design or
code on this system. Some people have sent email about their 'areas of expertise'
and I would like to have everybody post and design/coding experience just
so we know what we have the capabilities of doing.

- --Bill

- ------------------------------

From: dan@engrg.uwo.ca
Subject: Gensec, Mapsub and more ramblings
To: sysgen-group

Now that I have had a chance to look at Gensec and Mapsub, I think they could
be a good basis for future work. I particuarily like the postscript
output on the mapsub program.

The data I would like to see is as follows:
Size	     Data			Map
1. Grand     None at this level		Contour Map of stars highlighting
	     (Info taken from level 2)	rift regions.
2. Sector    Star Locations, High	Tiny squares with dots for stars (name
	     population worlds		of high pop. planet?) (As in atlas of
	     indicated			the imperium)
3. Subsector Standard gensec output	As mapgen, perhaps with stats on left
					side as in "Spinward marches"
4. Solar     All planets basic info	(No real precidence.perhaps a landscape
	     Stars' info.		page with a scale of the system at the
					top, and some details of the planets
E.G:
System:O-.-.--.---.----%----o-----------o-------------o----------o-----------.
Zone:       I      O
Moons:   - -  1   2    -    24          16            9          3           -
etc.
5. Planetary Detailed info such as	Standard squashed dodecahedron, with
	     temperature, tilt etc.	major cities, roads etc. marked.
6. Regional  ?Unknown?			One "triangle" from planet map, more
					cities, terrain marked.
7. Local     ?Unknown?			City map, jungle map, etc. I have
					doubts about this one still.

As far a I can see, we will have to split the data file at some point, as all
the data would fill up too much space, and obscure the basics when the file
was editied. Perhaps if each system could be located exactly, a sorted database
could be maintained seperatley for the systems done in detail. Locating a
system in detail would only require identifying the sector somehow, as the
location in the sector is already present. If memory serves me there are only
about 140 sectors described (not all in the same detail) in the official 
Traveller/Megatraveller Universe. I hate to use the Imperial reference point
as the origin of the coordinate system. The Zho's would probably want to use
the center of the galixy as the origin, but that would probably result in
sector numbers being too large. (quick what's the radius of the galixy
divided by 10 parsecs?) Any ideas on what to use?

			-Dan
			
P.S. There hasn't been much response yet to my last mailing (one private Email
message) is anybody out there?

- ------------------------------

From: macgyver@cis.ohio-state.edu
Subject: In reponse to Bill's msg
To: sysgen-group

1 Which version of Traveller

	I think we should use MegaTraveller. Mainly because Traveller is now
consider outdated. And really for this program to be useful, MegaTraveller 
seems to make more sense.

2 Grand Survey
	
	Well, I don't think Grand Survey for MT is out yet, but we should
use World Builder's Handbook. DGP's stuff is official as far as both GDW and
everyone else concerns. No reason why we shouldn't use it.

3 what type

	I figure with all these people on this project, we should be able to
create a huge program that covers all aspect of it.

I do have a question about using C, I am wondering how many people know c++?

				Mac

- ------------------------------

From: jamesp@dadla.wr.tek.com
Subject: In reponse to Bill's msg
To: sysgen-group

I go for MT too.  In the star system area, there are not great
quantities of differences that former Traveller players would complain
about.

I think the entire thing should be written for (Mega)TRAVELLER, not so
general-purpose that it makes life hard for referees who have to convert
from super-realistic real-world modeling into game terms.  In
otherwords, I think we should use published game forms and symbols
for our output formats, wherever possible.  This means I'd like to use
procedures adapted from the World Builder's Handbook and the MT Referee's
Manual.

I want to consider a modular program approach (okay, so I'm a UNIX
wizard and it shows).  Maybe a set of filters that take the input and
randomly/user-guidedly generate additional information.

I am doig my first project in C++, having become fairly whizzy at C over
the last few years, and would enjoy using C++ instead of C.  But, I
wouldn't chafe at using plain old C.

- ------------------------------

>From jamesp@dadla.wr.tek.com Fri Oct 13 01:54:13 1989
Subject: Star System Group: Area of Expertise
To: sysgen-group


> I almost forgot - In order to help with the "realism" aspect of
> star system generation, I would appreciate anybody/everybody to let
> the group know their particular area of expertise (if applicable).

I have a broad knowledge of Astronomy and Astrophysics.  It's not really
deep, but is about as deep as a Upper Division 6-month course in
Astronomy/Astrophysics would be at a major University.  I was at the top
of my 1-year course in Classical Physics w/Calculus at my University.  I
play with Simulation of Physical systems on the computer.  I am somewhat
familiar (broad but not deep) about planetary geology (or whatever you
call what we learn from Mariner, Pioneer and Voyager).  I have some
familiarity with Biochemistry and Biology, broad but not deep at all.  I
love all knowledge, and tend to be a generalist.  I read Scientific
American cover-to-cover, but tend to skim on biochemistry and
anthropology.

I have a BSCS and much experience in programming on Unix systems.  I am
one of the handful the power-users and wizards in my engineering group
of about 50 people where I work.  I am a computer and science nerd.

- ------------------------------

From: jamesp@dadla.wr.tek.com
Subject: Maps
To: sysgen-group

In Archive Message Number 621,
	Richard Johnson <richard@agora.hf.intel.com> writes:
> I am getting tired of new/better/different ways to map sectors and 
> subsectors.  I've already got all I can handle.

Yes, it does seem to be the thing everyone does first when they come to
Traveller.  I remember spending many hours rolling dice coming up with
my first subsector in about 1980.  There are a lot of systems in a
subsector.  You have some useful suggestions for the people on the Star
System Digest group.

As for generating minor bodies in a stellar system, well, I would tend
to think you'd be rather overwhelmed by detail.  Still, it wouldn't be
unreasonable to list the major planetoids in a system and map out the
Trojan points 60 degrees before and after large gas giant planets.  Any
system will have planetoids of some kind.

The orbital map would be easy; it would be simple to derive interesting
orbits where satellites would be likely to be concentrated.  For economy
reasons, most satellites live in low planetary orbit, whereas those that
need to hover over the same point in space by definition must be boosted
to Geosynch.

World/Satellite maps, both physical and political, have always been a
fascinating topic to me, and undoubtedly it is a very complicated one.
A real simulation designer's nightmare.  But it sounds like fun
research.  My previous exposure to this sort of idea was in generating a
map of terrain, simulated by volcanoes, then raining on it and letting
the water drain to locate rivers and lakes.  I met with mixed success.

Generating Life forms should be possible using clever randomized tables.
One could come up with a list of general attributes the larger popular
creatures on the planet have (like on earth, they have hair and four
legs, etc.), the vary it to generate different creatures.  The tables
and mechanism for doing this would be probably be good material for
submission to the Traveller's Digest, too.

What is a "net list";  Is it a listing describing the attributes of each
object/hex printed on the map?  If it is, this sounds valuable:

Player: "what do we get when we scan this hex by the ocean?"

Ref: "Hex 2109 on the planet map, let's look it up.  Uh-huh.  Sensors
reveal a major city with a metropolitan/suburb area of 12km x 15km in
size, a major river passing through on its way to the ocean, and a class
F Spaceport.  Library data indicates that this city has a population of
1.4 million inhabitants, and is called Port City."

Like I said before, I lean toward developing output forms that are
recognized for their similarity to existing forms published by GDW and
Digest Group.

James

- ------------------------------

From: jamesp@dadla.wr.tek.com
Subject: Maps, maps, maps
To: sysgen-group

Just got this mail from Richard.  Thought it'd be okay to share it with
you guys as useful feedback.

James

- ------- Forwarded Message

To: jamesp@dadla.WR.TEK.COM
Date: Sun Oct 15 19:22:45 1989
>From : richard@agora.hf.intel.COM (Richard Johnson)

James;

We're in complete agreement about maps needing to match the needs
of the users AND be somewhat compatible with what has gone before.

Your idea is better than a net list (complete concordance of what 
is in each hex on the map).  A net list is an idea from CAD programs
that tells which pins on which chip are connected together, and
sometimes some limited information about those chips.

My original thought went something more like what you said, though.

This would enable the party (or each player) to have a map with 
"player" information, the GM to have a similar one and a complete
description with confidential information.

	Richard

- ------- End of Forwarded Message

- ------------------------------

From: tek@cs.ucla.edu
Subject: Maps and 3D space
> Ted Kim writes:
> 
> >> 
> >> I think, I would like to have one package to generate the natural
> >> universe and then a separate one to populate and civilize it. The
> >> second program would have to take into account the differences between
> >> races and different star empires. It could operate on several scales.
> >>
> 
> Last, are we going to open the 3D can of worms? It wouldn't be 
> *that* difficult to doand it would be easy to implement realistic
> stellar distances, but there are a *lot* of Jump-1 shipd out there
> that could very easily get stuck in the sectors that we would generate.
> 

<Matt>
> I like the idea of using 3D space, but haven't been able to figure out how
> to create maps that are both interesting and readable.  I don't think that
> Jump-1 ships would be affected too much, since the mean separation of stars
> would not be changed.

I have an old game from TSR (Star Empires?) that uses squares (a very old game)
with dots representing the stars and a number representing the height above/
below the ecliptic. Unfortunately it is difficult to give much additional
information without cluttering the display. This solution does make the stars
easy to locate (unlike Traveller.. oops. 2300AD which however is very accurate)
Jump-1 ships *are* a problem, as making a 3D map dense enough for their 
movement will cause considerable congestion in the hexes.

> 
> All of this hierarchical universe-building sounds an awful lot like the
> Universe Simulation Mailing List (usml-request@hc.dspo.gov).  For those of
> you with internet access, try ftp'ing to hc.dspo.gov (192.12.184.4) to
> check out the usml archives there.
>
Maybe they have some good ideas....


A lot of this discussion can be summarized as: are we going to support the
standard Traveller/MegaTraveller rules and supplements or do some other
interesting things as well.
As far as I am concerned being on the traveller list, we should first
and foremost be able to represent the Tr/MTr system as is with no enhancements
from any program we generate. Then worry about the optional details.

Now let me argue against myself: We need to have some idea what enhancements
we are going to use to allow us to design the program and data structures
well. If our program is exactly according to the books, then we are not really
adding anything and may be in violation of copyright.
Furthermore I noticed an ad by DGP in the back of world builder's handbook:
Coming in Jan 1990, World builders handbook for computer, as well as the
second? survey data (ie. stats for the 11000 worlds)
This will be available for PC's, Mac, and two others of that ilk. 

What does everyone assume about stellar phenomenon? There has never been a
place for generating black holes, neutron stars, nebula, dust clouds, 
pulsars etc. I have always assumed that there were a lot more stars out there
than are actually drawn on the map. The other "unmapped" stars would only
be of passing interest to Scientists (1 month research trips and unmanned
montioring probes). All of these "stars" would have two things in common:
a) no fuel to speak of (interstellar hydrogen) b) no solid surfaces to
put bases or other strucures on.
Therefore they are not placed on the maps as jumpspace effectively ignores 
everything between the entry/exit points (maybe the navigator worries about 
them and their possible influence).
<I think I will post this last bit to the entire list as well>

		-Dan (verbose as usual)

- ------------------------------

From: morrison@pyr.gatech.edu
Subject: Maps and 3D space (And a proposal...)
Dan has a good point in that we need to get going with something. Here
is my proposal:

   1) That we integrate existing software into one comprehensive
      package to generate systems in accordance with MegaTraveller
      guidelines. The existing software that (I think) we should
      integrate are James' mapsub program (PostScript output), and
      the "real" system generator. We would have to tweak the
      Traveller side of the program to take input from the "real"
      side (in terms of hydrographic percentage, etc) for more 
      realistic systems, or vice-versa for "tunable" systems.

   2) We plan on the next extension to the system generator, which
      can be whatever the group wants (Determining trade routes,
      implementing 3D, planetary mapping, whatever).

Right now, we need a working prototype to give us something to play
with. We might want to consider getting a group of people to Alpha test
whatever we develope and tell us what else we might have overlooked.

For those of you  that don't have these two programs, let me know and
I'll send you the source.

- --Bill

- ------------------------------

From: macgyver@cis.ohio-state.edu
Subject: ok
	So, we got about 20 people on this list. Now, I see a problem
here. If we are going to write a phototype program, how would we spilt the
task and work load?

- ------------------------------

From: macgyver@cis.ohio-state.edu
Subject: profile
	Well, since Bill asked for a post describing the programming experience.
here goes, I am a computer science major in Ohio state university. I have
been programming for 3 years now. 3 years of pascal, 2 years of c, and
4 month of C++. I have written programs ranging from less than 10 lines to
100,000 lines before. 

				Mac

- ------------------------------

From: morrison@pyr.gatech.edu
Subject: Re: What we should do
To: sysgen-group

[First, I hope everybody got Peter's correct email address].

<>From dan> 
>> need to be consistent with the data we generate. There is no way (correct >> me if I'm wrong) with a low denity and mass is going to have many heavy  
>> elements to support that TL15 society.
>
> Define support...A TL15 society wouldn't be native to such a system, but it
>could be a game reserve and hunting park for the nobility.

OK. Caught me on that one. I've been in one too many games where there 
was an advanced culture with nothing to support it.


>City map could be very difficult, but I don't see any problem with the
>others all should be optional however. I don't want 11000+ 
>planetary maps...

I agree. I was envisioning several programs that would work like UNIX
pipes: feed the output of one into the input of the next. If you 
want a planet map, you would first have to have a sector map,
then you'ld have your subsector extracted from that. You feed that into
system generator to get the number of planets, etc. You'd extract the
one or more planets you were interested in and feed that into the 
map generator. The hard part is that the cohesion between the subsector
and system generators have to be tight (too much interaction between
determining the types of planets, where they are, trade routes, X-boat
routes, etc). Ideas?

BTW, I heartily agree with the need for modularity. The programming of this
over thethe internet is going to get heady.

I'm working on a Sun-3/280 (for the moment). The project I'm on will be
over by January, so I don't know what system I'll be working on
then (maybe my PC :-). I'll still have email anyway.

- -- Bill

- ------------------------------

From: morrison@pyr.gatech.edu
Subject: Request for background of group members
To: sysgen-group

I almost forgot - In order to help with the "realism" aspect of
star system generation, I would appreciate anybody/everybody to let
the group know their particular area of expertise (if applicable).
Metlay told me he knows a bit about Astrophysics so he can advise us
on the partical dynamics and evolution of star systems. Other than
what I pick up here and there, I know nothing (I think ;-) that might
help (I do know computer science and programming). If anyone knows
about planetary evolution and geology (formation of contenents, the
elemental mix on the "average planet of mass X", biology to
predict the type of life form (I know *that's* grasping at
straws :-) that might develope given the elements available on the
planet, or anything else, I'd appreciate you letting the group know.

- --Bill

- ------------------------------

From: morrison@pyr.gatech.edu
Subject: Starting point
To: sysgen-group

I think Dan has come up with a good starting place on breaking
up the resolution and scope of the various levels. Each of
these levels (as applicable) could be an individual program
taking data from a collection of data files generated by the
appropriate other levels. I think that having one common
database store the information would simply be too large and
unwieldy (access times on low-end [PC} systems would be
horrendous). I think we could come up with some sort of "pointer"
system -- one file for sectors containing the bare bones information
and name pointers indicating the names of the file to go to for
the system, which would have the name of the file(s) to go to
for each planet, etc. Also, unwieldy but it would be simple
to implement -- the hardest part would be gaurenting unique file
names.

I also received a message indicating an optional way to modularize
a generation system -- at least at the universe level. Ted 
Kim writes:

>> 
>> I think, I would like to have one package to generate the natural
>> universe and then a separate one to populate and civilize it. The
>> second program would have to take into account the differences between
>> races and different star empires. It could operate on several scales.
>>

Last, are we going to open the 3D can of worms? It wouldn't be 
*that* difficult to doand it would be easy to implement realistic
stellar distances, but there are a *lot* of Jump-1 shipd out there
that could very easily get stuck in the sectors that we would generate.

- --Bill

- ------------------------------

From: dan@engrg.uwo.ca
Subject: Welcome [Comments on what we should do & background]
To: sysgen-group

<>From Bill>

> what version(s) of Traveller do we want to support, and how 'realistic'
> do we want to get. Also, how many different generation systems do we
> want to work on (one for systems, one for specific information on the
> planets in each system, etc.).

I believe that there is no problem as to what we should cover, the old rules
for system generation are a subset of the Megatraveller rules, Megatraveller
just provides a labeling of the values presented in traveller (ie. wet world
instead of 60% hydrographics). Similarly with grand survey, it just provides
additonal information for the worlds (including a nifty plate tectonics and
surface mapping description). IMHO the "Program" should really be a series
of programs, each taking the system/subsector data to greater levels of detail, 
If you don't use the Megatraveller rules for instance, stop running the
programs before the megatraveller info gets added.
BTW does anyone have a short form for Traveller and MegaTraveller so a discussion
of the differences doesn't take forever to type?
> 
> Other considerations would be, do we want to adapt to something like the
> Grand Survey and/or the World Builders handbook (both of which I don't
> have - yet), how, too what extent, and copyright laws if we do.

I don't know if grand survey is still available...However, the World builders
handbook seems to cover everything in grand survey and grand census, but in
one book, and provides a more organized presentation. 

> planets (some habitable) all in stable orbits, something like Niven's Tree 
> world [I can't remember the name of the book, but it's a torus with no real 
> ground, but habitable non the less]) - you get the idea. In any event, we 

(The Integral Trees, and Smoke Ring I believe are the titles of the two books.)

> need to be consistent with the data we generate. There is no way (correct 
> me if I'm wrong) with a low denity and mass is going to have many heavy 
> elements to support that TL15 society.

Define support...A TL15 society wouldn't be native to such a system, but it
could be a game reserve and hunting park for the nobility. Often the most
interesting adventures occur when the GM makes up a reason for what looks to
be conflicting data on a world. However as a GM I often find it difficult to
make up the reasons.

> 
> So main things to decide now:
> 
>    - Which version of Traveller (Classic and/or Mega) do we want to
>      target?
Both...(Look up...Look way way up...) see earlier description.
>    - Do we want to tie in with the Grand Survey and the World Builders
>      Handbook?
Yes, as an optional program.
>    - What type(s) and how many different generation system(s) do we want
>      to create (sector/subsector/planetary info/ planetary map/city map)?
City map could be very difficult, but I don't see any problem with the others
all should be optional however. I don't want 11000+ planetary maps for a sector
map of the Imperium.
>    - Aside from the standard information that any referee can find/make
>      in the various books, what other useful information do we want
>      to provide (planetary history, relations with the Imperium, etc)?
I usualy use a lot of other SFRPG systems as source books for traveller. They
quite often have alternate information on their planet descriptions. I will
mail these when I get a change to llok them up. One that sticks in my mind though
was a % value for the locals reaction to off-worlders (assuming outside the
starport.)
> 
> I almost forgot - In order to help with the "realism" aspect of
> star system generation, I would appreciate anybody/everybody to let
> the group know their particular area of expertise (if applicable).

My area of expertise is 1) Master of Computer Science (almost completed)
2) Finished 2yrs out of 3 in astronomy program (was specializing in
stellar atmospheres) (Almost completed is the story of my life :-) )

<>From Mac>

> 
> 2 Grand Survey
>	
>	Well, I don't think Grand Survey for MT is out yet, but we should
> use World Builder's Handbook. DGP's stuff is official as far as both GDW and
> everyone else concerns. No reason why we shouldn't use it.

World builders handbook *is* grand survey for MegaTraveller.

>
> I do have a question about using C, I am wondering how many people know c++?
>

Not only does the progammer have to know C++, but there has to be a C++ compiler
on everyone's machine. I think that we should stick to C as it is the "universal"
language for all UNIX machines.

Now for my questions:

What machine is everyone working on...I have a sun 3/60 on my desk, and
access to SPARCstation (Sun), MIPS M/2000, Silicon Graphics 4D/70 and Personal
Iris (Note all are UNIX machines but vary between BSD, BSDish, and SysV)

Copyright, In Canada, there is not a problem, as we are not doing this for
a monetary gain, and as long as there is a discaimer indicating that the
program is for those people who already own Traveller/MegaTraveller... I don't
know what the situation is in the States.

In any programming project among several people, coordination can be the most
difficult item. If I improve some code and you improve the same code, it can
take forever to get them the same. Remember modularity is a must.

I believe also that there cannot be too much information, just too much
presented at one time. Albedo while not important to most is essential
for calculating the temperature of the planet. If you want to fiddle with the
charateristics (ie. it is too cold for your garden planet) some of these
obscure statistics can be useful.
I find that most of my players cannot make sense of the traveller statistics
for a planet (eg. Fubar 0203-A456345-9 Na GAm) means nothing to them, thus
we saw the expansion of the sector map from just having dots Starport and
name to gross planet type, bases, gas giant symbols etc. Visuals are often
more understandable and should be present in any postscript representation.

As we have several types of maps for our planet (road maps, contour/geographical
maps, political maps) so should a complete sector/subsector map. The types of
maps I can think of right away are:

1) Political (only useful if sector/subsector is not owned by a single
government as most of the Imperium was)
2) Jump maps - There is a section of the old rules describing the
connectivity of stars based on their starport and distance. I take this
to be a transportation map, which is significantly different from the
usual Xboat maps
3) Trade maps - A lot of worlds are good trade partners while others aren't
(I think the trade and commerce group would like somthing like this with
all the good trade routes marked perhaps as weighted vectors?)
4) Navigation maps - Stuff as much data onto the map as possible for players
to make visual comparison of destination worlds (This is the closest to the
current maps)
5) Strategic Maps - (This is still a foggy concept) Presumably the military
would want different information on their maps than the civilians...

	-Dan Corrin

- ------------------------------

From: burdick@hpindl1.hp.com
Subject: Welcome [What we should do & background]
To: sysgen-group

To begin, I have BS's in computer science and astrophysics, but I've been
neglecting my astrophyics, so I'm probably a bit rusty.

>   - Which version of Traveller (Classic and/or Mega) do we want to
>     target?

I would rather design a program that can be used with any space RPG.  I
wrote the "starform" program with that in mind, so if there is information
that you're not interested in, it is simple to ignore it.  I'm fairly happy
with the output from starform, but it does tend to generate boring systems.

One thing I'd like is to be able to specify what planets/stars I'd like to
see in a given system ("Hmmm.  How about a yellow star with a planet with
breathable atmosphere, bearable gravity, and no water...").

Also, I think C would be the most portable language to use.  The starform
program used to be in Pascal, but I ported it to C for portability.

                                                        -matt

- ------------------------------

>From burdick@hpindl1.hp.com Wed Oct 11 19:15:53 1989
Subject: Re: What we should do

Sorry to those of you who have already received this, but I had a typo in
my aliases list and it didn't get sent to everyone.

To begin, I have BS's in computer science and astrophysics, but I've been
neglecting my astrophyics, so I'm probably a bit rusty.

>   - Which version of Traveller (Classic and/or Mega) do we want to
>     target?

I would rather design a program that can be used with any space RPG.  I
wrote the "starform" program with that in mind, so if there is information
that you're not interested in, it is simple to ignore it.  I'm fairly happy
with the output from starform, but it does tend to generate boring systems.

One thing I'd like is to be able to specify what planets/stars I'd like to
see in a given system ("Hmmm.  How about a yellow star with a planet with
breathable atmosphere, bearable gravity, and no water...").

Also, I think C would be the most portable language to use.  The starform
program used to be in Pascal, but I ported it to C for portability.

                                                        -matt

- ------------------------------

From: morrison@pyr.gatech.edu
Subject: Welcome to the Star System Discussion Group
To: sysgen-group

Welcome one and all to the Star System Generation Discussion group. I'm sure
most of you are wondering what we are going to do and what we should talk
about. Well, that's the first thing we have to decide. There are several
main points we need to consider before we even begin discussing what
we should include in our generation system(s): what we want to generate
(besides pure star systems), what type(s) of systems do we want to target,
what version(s) of Traveller do we want to support, and how 'realistic'
do we want to get. Also, how many different generation systems do we
want to work on (one for systems, one for specific information on the
planets in each system, etc.).

Other considerations would be, do we want to adapt to something like the
Grand Survey and/or the World Builders handbook (both of which I don't
have - yet), how, too what extent, and copyright laws if we do.

MY ROLE
- -------
I am merely coordinating communication between the members of the discussion
group and the rest of the Traveller Mailing List membership. I'll take
all of the messages each week, "digestify" them and post the summary to
the mailing list. Another job of mine is to make sure that we stay on
track with the topic of creating a viable star system generation system. I
am by no means dictator of this group. My job is to keep personality conflicts,
flaming, etc to a minimum. My vote on design issues and implementation counts
no more nor less than anyone elses. The next section describes my *opinion* 
on where I think this group should go within the area of star system 
generation and what we should do. If the majority of the group thinks 
otherwise, we can change our methods.

OUR FUTURE
- ----------
I envision us taking functionality from James' PostScript program and the 
"real" star system program and then adding lots of features for something 
with lots of bells and whistles (with a varying level of detail at the 
referees request, PostScript or ASCII output, and generating sector to the 
planetary level of information). Things we can also add are planetary maps, 
city maps, and anything anyone wants. 

For those who want specifics, here is my humble opinion on what we
should aim for:

We should target both PC and UNIX system primarily, with other machines 
(Atari/Amiga, VMS) systems pending demand - and our time). We should use
C as the language of choice (since that's what most people know). Down
the line we may want to port to PASCAL, FORTRAN, and (oh no!) BASIC
for those on other platforms (VMS and PCs), but that's a long way off. I
would like to see the program be as realistic as possible without giving
too much 'technical' information that doesn't do much for the game(eg.
albeido, etc). However, we need to add a 'make believe' mode for outrageous 
star systems (eg.  ringworlds, Dyson spheres, trinary systems with 15 
planets (some habitable) all in stable orbits, something like Niven's Tree 
world [I can't remember the name of the book, but it's a torus with no real 
ground, but habitable non the less]) - you get the idea. In any event, we 
need to be consistent with the data we generate. There is no way (correct 
me if I'm wrong) with a low denity and mass is going to have many heavy 
elements to support that TL15 society.

But this all comes from what people want. Well, you are all
players and/or referees - what do YOU want out of a system? We've all
heard lots of "Wouldn't it be nice if..." questions. Let's give them
what they want.

So main things to decide now:

   - Which version of Traveller (Classic and/or Mega) do we want to
     target?
   - Do we want to tie in with the Grand Survey and the World Builders
     Handbook?
   - What type(s) and how many different generation system(s) do we want
     to create (sector/subsector/planetary info/ planetary map/city map)?
   - Aside from the standard information that any referee can find/make
     in the various books, what other useful information do we want
     to provide (planetary history, relations with the Imperium, etc)?
   - Are James Perkins' subsector program and Matt Burdick's "real"
     generation program useful starting points?

Well, you can tell already that I ramble.

Well, that's enough from me. You have my ideas on where I think the group
should head. We have some decisions to make.

- --Bill Morrison

- ------------------------------

From: morrison@pyr.gatech.edu
Subject: What's in the works...
Dan came up with the idea of distributing a questionnaire as an easy
to get programming experience, ideas for implementation and functions,
etc. I'll get this out in a couple of days.

Also, I'll get the first digest out by Friday. Right now, I'm under
a big crunch to get an X application going by the end of the month.
[No, this doesn't mean that I'll be the 'leader' - I'll help, but
I don't have a lot of time.]

- --Bill

- ------------------------------

End of Traveller System Generation Group Digest
******************************




-------- TML Message #675 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 675
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 89 09:17 EDT
From: B_MAHONE%UNHH.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: Nukes and PC's


I made the off-hand decision last week that PC Starship operators cannot
normally get access to nuclear missiles.  (I mean, *really* now...)

Does anyone allow this?  I can see some black-market access for Pirates and
such, but not normal merchants.

Comments?

- -Bob                                              b_mahoney@unhh.bitnet



-------- TML Message #676 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 676
From: (Bertil Jonell) d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: Sector Maps & Data
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 89 15:23:11 MET DST


A Question:

Is there any UPP data for the Deneb, Corridor and Vland sector available
anywhere? 
Have GDW's or DGP's various periodicals had any articles about these sectors?
- -bertil-

- -- 
Bertil K K Jonell @ Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg
NET: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se 
VOICE: +46 31 723971 / +46 300 61004     "Don`t worry,I`ve got Pilot-7"
SNAILMAIL: Box 154,S-43900 Onsala,SWEDEN      (Famous last words)      
"During the high point of the Downes Age, they put Ming the Merciless in charge
of designing Carlifornia gas stations" W.Gibson "The Gernsback Continuum"



-------- TML Message #677 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 677
Date: Wed,  1 Nov 89 17:46:50 -0500 (EST)
From: (Ronald Henry Daubel) rd1g+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: Nukes and PC's


I run my campaign such that most weapons of a heavy nature are hard to
get unless you are on a very low law level world (in which case you are
most likely dealing with the black market/pirates/mob anyway).

On the upper tech/law level worlds, I have a couple of different black
markets, with listings of what the PC's can purchase, how much and what
the availability is (%).  I use a few different lists because for lower
tech worlds, you wont be able to get some stuff, and the same is true of
high law worlds.

I don't have anything cohesive with me (I'm at school, home is 400 miles
away) but if I can dig something up I'll post it.

Ron Daubel

Arpa:  rd1g@andrew.cmu.edu

Bitnet: r746rd1g@vb.cc.cmu.edu
           arioch@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu



-------- TML Message #678 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 678
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 89 18:11:15 -0500
From: (Mark Gellis) f3w@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Nukes



Nukes are available in my world, although I restrict access to them.
Usually, you can only get them through governments.  Sometimes, the black
market will have some.  Corporations involved in deep space mining also
have some (where do you think the black market usually gets them from?).
Of course, if you get a character wealthy enough to buy the facilities
required to manufacture them, you could probably start building them for
yourself.  

Nukes are an accepted part of life in my gameworld.  They are a tool.
Like any tool, they can be misued, which is why societies have laws, ethical
systems, and sometimes religion.  There are much more dangerous things in
my world than nuclear weapons.

Gaming with nukes can be fun, but they do offer a problem for a GM who
likes to give his players a "way out" when they screw up--if you screw up
and get hit by a nuke, there is no way out.  If you're in a spacecraft and
a five-kiloton nuke hits, you're gone, you're hot plasma, end of story,
roll the credits, Mr. Carpenter.

Just one more "Remember, your actions may have reprecussions.  Think before
you act" kind of thing players may have to deal with.

One way to control players with/looking for nukes.  Make them legal, if they
are licensed.  Governments allow companies (player characters can incorporate
themselves, just the way authors and other private citizens do now, so they
can get around that one) to have nukes for industrial purposes, etc., but
they naturally want to keep tabs on anything so potentially destructive;
also, you only get to buy your nukes when you have permission (i.e., a 
license), and you have to apply for it and give good reasons.  Governments
may also get to approve each use of a nuke, depending on law levels, etc.
Not only does this make it difficult for characters to get nukes, but it
provides potential additional adventures because anyone who applies for
this kind of license will have a nice government file on them, and it lets
the GM punish players who misuse their nukes (if they wish to do so).

Enjoy.




-------- TML Message #679 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 679
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 89 20:38:51 PST
From: gazis@halley.arc.nasa.gov
Subject: The Nuclear OptionxD



 
>I made the off-hand decision last week that PC Starship operators cannot
>normally get access to nuclear missiles.  (I mean, *really* now...)
 
>Does anyone allow this?  I can see some black-market access for Pirates and
>such, but not normal merchants.

     Yes.  Nuclear weapons are available in the Eight Worlds.  They are
technically illegal, but there is no effective law enforcement beyond
the Frontier.  No one who takes even the simplest precautions to hide
the identify of his ship need fear prosecution.  
     And nuclear weapons have been used:

>Comments?
 
     The availability of nukes raises the musical question:  Is such
attire appropriate for a gentleman?
     True, nukes are handy devices for clearing landing fields in otherwise 
unsuitable terrain:  They remove ground cover, produce a smooth hardened 
crust capable of supporting the weight of a small starship, and eliminate
hostile natives all in one simple fast operation.  But they are also:
     1) Expensive.  There are almost always cheaper ways to do the job.
     2) Inappropriate.  Most military opperations in the Eight Worlds
are mounted to grab loot.  Which loot is generally less valuable if it
takes the form of a cloud of ions.
     3) Marginally illegal.  Yes, there is no law enforcement outside
the Pale, but many worlds capable of producing weapons of mass destruction
also make some attempt to regulate their ownership.  One must locate a 
suitably unscrupulous dealer, procure the weapon in secret, and smuggle 
it off the planet.  These are not impossible tasks, but they are tasks.
     4) Ineffective aginst a sophisticated opponent.  While the physical
laws of the Eight Worlds universe evidently do not allow for atomic
damper fields, they do allow for small fast inexpensive missiles which 
home in on radiation sources.  
     Individually these considerations are trivial.  Collectively they
have served to deter casual exercise of the nuclear option except in
one EXTREMELY exceptional case.

Paul R. Gazis                        
gazis@hal.span.nasa.gov   or
gazis%hal.span@ames.arc.nasa.gov   or
something like that




-------- TML Message #680 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 680
Subject: Nukes and PC's 
Date: Wed, 1 Nov 89 18:50:09 EST
From: (Jonathan Bayer) jbayer@ispi.COM


> 
> 
> I made the off-hand decision last week that PC Starship operators cannot
> normally get access to nuclear missiles.  (I mean, *really* now...)
> 
> Does anyone allow this?  I can see some black-market access for Pirates and
> such, but not normal merchants.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> -Bob                                              b_mahoney@unhh.bitnet


No, I am not going to allow that either.  My campaign (which is just
starting) is going to be based on an Ahzanti High Lightning ship (owned
by the PCs) with the major weaponry removed.


JB
- -- 
Jonathan Bayer		Intelligent Software Products, Inc.
(201) 245-5922		500 Oakwood Ave.
jbayer@ispi.COM		Roselle Park, NJ   07204    



-------- TML Message #681 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 681
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 89 09:43 EST
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: nukes



As a rule, I strongly forbid them in my campaign, for a number of reasons.

First and foremost, they're illegal and Imperially controlled by the Rules
of War, or whatever the GDW term is. That's a strong deterrent even to the
black market, as the Imperial authorities have a way of finding people who
violate what little territory they reserve for themselves and making them 
go bye-bye.

Second, they're often not the best way to do things. There are better and more
effective ways of clearing land, breaking up asteroids, and eliminating large
scale military targets. About the only thing they're really good for is killing
large numbers of civilians in quick and gruesome fashion.

Third, they're terribly dirty and wasteful of precious land and resources. The
Imperial government as well as the various planetary governments frowns on such
waste; it's bad for business.

Since the military has and uses dampers on anything larger than a personnel
carrier, they only do well against civilian targets that can't afford to be
damped. This limits their effectiveness. However, the general abhorrence of
nuclear weapons in the Imperium obviates even marginally practical uses, like
convincing a shipload of pirates to leave you alone. In my campaign, the early
TL development of nukes is watched and controlled very carefully by the 
Imperium; failures in the policy (that we know of so far) are rare and far
between: Weipu, Ganulph (which was a military target in a dirty war) and
Asmodeus (which wasn't an Imperial world).

As a final psychological deterrent to players who seem to think that nukes are
somehow vital to prove (to me? to each other? I'm still working on this one)
their machismo, I provide any number of hints that even the lowest orders of
criminalia in the Imperium regards people who use nukes to achieve their ends
with about the same solicitude as that the Dusseldorf underworld used in 
hunting down a child-murderer in the 1930s, as chronicled in the excellent
Fritz Lang movie "M". This is astonishingly effective:

SNOOTY CHARACTER: "How dare you cast aspersions on me, you villain?"
UNDERWORLD BOSS: "I'm not the one trying to buy a nuke! Boys, take this
                  filthy stinkscrabbler out back and blow his head off."

As a side note, I wouldn't mind a discussion (here or via Email) on the topic
of Traveller players and (for want of a better word) player/character machismo.
After eleven years of running this game, I am finally enjoying the company of
a small group of players who equip themselves sensibly, disport themselves
maturely, and seem to have risen above the endless technological and military
variations on the childhood game of "my pee pee's longer than yours." There
may or may not be a need for someone, somewhere, to have nuclear weapons, I 
suppose, but the thought of putting them in the hands of players with something
(God knows what) to prove seems somehow obscene to me. Probably a character
fault of my own....

metlay



-------- TML Message #682 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 682
From: (Adrian Hurt) adrian%cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Nukes and PC's
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 89 10:41:06 BST



> > I made the off-hand decision last week that PC Starship operators cannot
> > normally get access to nuclear missiles.  (I mean, *really* now...)
> > 
> > Does anyone allow this?  I can see some black-market access for Pirates and
> > such, but not normal merchants.
> > 
> > -Bob                                              b_mahoney@unhh.bitnet
> 
> No, I am not going to allow that either.  My campaign (which is just
> starting) is going to be based on an Ahzanti High Lightning ship (owned
> by the PCs) with the major weaponry removed.

Within the Imperium, nuclear weapons are banned outright, except for use by the
regular Imperial forces.  Admittedly there is a small dispute going on as to who
exactly constitutes regular Imperial forces (:-) but I doubt any PC's are able
to stake any such claim.

I once played in a campaign about some Vargr.  I played a high charisma Vargr
who, by an interesting and fully played-out route, came to be in sole charge of
a 30,000 ton cruiser.  Fully armed.  It was TL16, too (check the Vargr Alien
module for the capital of the Kedzudh Aeng).  We had some fun, but I think we
had more fun when we were only using a little 400 ton corsair.

 "Keyboard? How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk



-------- TML Message #683 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 683
Date: Mon, 6 Nov 89 17:24:09 EST
From: (Chris Bartlett) cdba_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
Subject: Re: Nukes in Traveller



Hello everybody! Mr. Perkins hasn't put me on the mailing list yet ( soon
though ), but I couldn't resist tossing in my two cents on this subject
anyway.  

     As a referee, in my Traveller campaigns I severely restrict civilian
access to nuclear weapons, ESPECIALLY civilian player characters.  My 
reason for this is simply that I feel giving PCs nukes makes for poor
game balance.  I most emphatically DO NOT want a bunch of PCs with a
subsidized merchant taking on squadrons of Vargr corsairs, Imperial
cruisers, or whatever.  Believe me, some of my players would do it too!
Unfortunately, some of the people I have refereed were of a somewhat
militant mindset ( who hasn't refereed someone like that? ), so such
restrictions were necessary to the type of campaign I was attempting to 
run.  

     Basically, if you are going to permit the players to acquire heavy
weaponry, be it nukes, battle dress and FGMP-14s, or whatever, you have
to provide them with appropriate challenges to overcome.  The players 
have to be challenged as players, to keep them interested. Most players
would get bored knocking over cargo ships with a battlecruiser after a
while, or at least I'd rather play with players who would...

     Anyway, that's some of my thoughts on the subject.  I'd really
like to hear any comments on it.  

Chris Bartlett 




-------- TML Message #684 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 684
From: ("45252-Peter L. Berghold") wrgate.wr.tek.com!uunet.uu.net!allegra!violin!plb@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: Re: Nukes and PC's
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 89 10:52:02 EST


>> 
	[ text delteted concerning PC's with nukes to save bandwidth ]

The one time I had characters with nukes was the time I was playing a character
who was the commander of some merc forces that had been hired by the Imperium 
to put down a particularly ugly civil war between internal parties to an 
autonomous state.   The concern here from the Imperial point of view was the 
fact that this conflict threatened the stability of of surrounding sectors.
The mercs were given carte blanche authority from as high as the Emperor 
himself  to use whatever means needed to put the civil war to an end.  

The real reason, unknown to the mercs at the time, that the Imperium was so 
interested in quelling this disturbance was that essential ingredients in the
Emperor's anagathic treatments originated from this area.  As long as the 
civil war blazed, no stuff! 

As it turned out, the nukes were never used.   Just the mere threat of the use
of nukes on the population centers was enough to bring the beligerants to the 
negotiating table.

Pete



- -- 
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */
/*		Peter L. Berghold					*/
/*		System Administrator					*/
/*		AT&T Red Hill Systems Administration Group		*/
/*		1F138	+1 (201) 615-4419				*/
/*		EMAIL (UUCP):	{uunet!allegra|att}!violin!plb		*/
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */




-------- TML Message #685 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 685
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 89 08:48:01 EST
From: givler@cbmvax.commodore.COM (Greg Givler - QA)
Subject: Re:  Nukes and PC's


I have allowed them in certain situations, nukes that is, but very rarely.
They have to go thru the local organized crime boss, usually. Plus the 
missiles cost about 10X book value, more if you upset your seller. True, 
you can't just go up to your local weapons dealer and say I'd like three
tactical nuclear missiles, please, and could you gift wrap them they're 
for a friend. That would cause a raised eyebrow or to, at the local law 
enforcement agency.

Greg



-------- TML Message #686 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 686
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 89 10:27:26 est
From: mleymaster@lucy.wellesley.edu
Subject: Traveller Literature Search


Jim Cunningham's recent remarks about a pile of old HighPassage magazines
prompts me to ask after a related item.  Several of us on this list have
probably been looking for literally years for a copy of HighPassage #1.
Can Jim or anyone else lend me a copy or swap it or something.
Ive got extra issues of some of the old Judges Guild sectors, a duplicate 
copy of Paranoia Press' Beyond, and like Jim more than a few old copies
of High Passage and Far Traveller.  I'd like to exchange some or all of
this for a readable edition of Paranoia Press' other sector booklet, which
I think was for the Old Expanses.  My regular mail address may be useful
for this: Mark Leymaster, PoBx 2569, Boston, MA 02208.  Thanks




-------- TML Message #687 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 687
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 89 21:34:46 PST
From: gazis@halley.arc.nasa.gov
Subject: Is Space Really the Final Frontier?



     There has always been a Frontier.

     What is the Frontier?  This question has many answers.  Some would
say that the Frontier is the place where civilization ends.  Others
would refer to physical obstacles such as mountains, deserts, or
for a starfaring civilization, the place beyond which there were no 
ready bases or fueling stations.  Still other folk, those of a morbid 
temperment, would define the Frontier to be the border between the
region where it is safe to travel and regions from which travellers
often fail to return.  But all of these definitions have one thing 
in common:

     Beyond the Frontier there is no law.

     Why, you may ask, is this so?  The answer is obvious.  Whatever 
its nature, be it border of civilization, a physical barrier, or the
boundary of a place where travellers routinely vanish, the Frontier 
represents a barrier to law enforcement as well.  Those charged with 
enforcing the law require a civilization in which to opperate.  They 
require bases and fueling stations.  They certainly need to stay alive.
Without these conditions, there can be no law enforcement.  And to
quote Jack Vance, "Law cannot reach where enforcement will not follow."
     A curious observation, you say, but one without relevance to my
game.  Perhaps so.  That is my very point.  I have followed the Nuclear
Controversy with some interest, and notice that many of you prohibit
or restrain the use of nuclear weapons through some reference to the
law.  This implies that adventurers opperate within the region where
law holds sway.  It implies that adventurers opperate INSIDE the 
Frontier rather than beyond it.

     My question is.  How many of you really believe or intend this
to be the case?  How many of you deliberately intend your players
to opperate inside the bounds of an all-encompassing civilization?
How many of you chose instead to force your players to devise their
own laws, to define their own moral code without recourse to or
dependance upon the strictures of their parent civilization?
     And what is the reason for your choice?

     To be fair, I should answer my own questions:
     In the Eight Worlds, the Frontier is defined by the orbital 
defense zones of the eight major worlds (Terra, Goa, San Vincento,  
The Plieades Federation, Great Belt, New Carina, Redstar, and 
Outback).  Outside this limited volume of space all is Wilderness.
There is no law except that which is enforced by coherent photons.
Pirates and raiders opperate with impunity.  Those sapients, vessels,
the prey of such.
     The major worlds do occasionally send forth their navies to
enforce some kind of order.  But these actions can rarely be
distinguished from the actions of the pirates and raiders they
purport to oppose ("Nice planet you've got there squire.  Be a
pity if anything happened to it.  You should join the New Carinan
Mutual Defense Alliance.")
     Matters were not always thus.  Legend tells of a time centuries
past when the entire Orion Arm flourished in peaceful prosperity
under the benign rule of the Terran Imperium.  But those days, if
they existed at all, are centuries gone.  The Empire was destroyed 
centuries ago, if it was ever more than a myth.

     I run such a campaign for two reasons.
     First, I have always been fascinated by the Wilderness.  I do
not wish to live there myself.  If I were to be suddenly transported 
to the Eight Worlds, my lifetime would probably be measured in minutes.  
But I enjoy exploring such an existance in the comfort and safety of 
my own living room.
     Second, a world without laws is a sort of moral mirror.  The
characters which opperate such a world, and to a certain extent
their players as well, must take responsibility for their own actions.
They have no one else to blame.  In the process they will eventually
confront themselves, and learn if they are truly good or truly evil.
     The results are often interesting...



For fun, gaming, and purple prose!

Paul R. Gazis                        
gazis@hal.arc.nasa.gov   or
gazis@hal.span.nasa.gov   or
gazis%hal.span@ames.arc.nasa.gov   or
something like that
(408) 736-0764 (h)




-------- TML Message #688 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 688
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 89 00:44:01 -0500
From: (Mark Gellis) f3w@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Nukes, characters, challenges....



I just read Chris's letter (he looks like a valuable addition to the 
group) and I was intrigued by his comments about the problems in keeping
players from getting bored.  I have the same problem sometimes because,
realistically, it's not that hard for a person who wants to become some
version of superman from doing so.

For example, one of my players, Tim, has put a lot of time and credits 
into building up his one weapon skill--Class II (rifles).  He has the
skill at +4, and he has taken advantage of all my special rules.  He
bought a custom laser rifle (very expensive, but it gives you an additiona
additional +2 to hit), AND he is using both a smart weapon system with
a biocontrol interface that hooks into his nervous system (another +2),
AND a skill chip hooked into a memory plug.  In effect, he has Laser Rifle
at +9.  (For those interested in these devices, read various cyberpunk
novels, especially Neuromancer, Count Zero, Schizmatrix, When Gravity
Fails, A Fire in the Sun, and Islands in the Net--they're all great 
novels in addition to providing some really nifty ideas for GM's).

Anyway, back to Tim.  Tim, knowing why it is important to NOT BE SEEN
bought a stealthed combat vacsuit (remember Predator?  A stealth suit
uses a wraparound videocell system that receives and then transmits
light hitting your body so you're almost invisible--the almost is a
big factor).  In daylight, people kind of notice the shimmer; at night,
you might as well be Sauron wearing the One Ring.  (Oh, yes, Tim got
the laser rifle stealthed too.)

Now all this cost about a million credits.  But Tim is pretty invincible
because he usually can't be seen, he's fast enough to get off the first shot
most of the time (especially when he's hidden), and he hits just about any-
thing he shoots at.  I don't mind too much.  I run a gameworld where if
you screw up in a gunfight, you die, but if you're smart in a gunfight, you
live (as it should be).  Still, unless I want to send someone as dangerous
or worse after Tim, what do I do?  I don't like using cheesy things like
"Oh, your stealth suit shorted out.  For no reason."

This long and rambling example, besides serving to offer a few ideas to
fellow GM's, if they want to use them, is dedicated to the question of:

   Once they get powerful, how do you deal with them without 
   just screwing them over?

My own solution is to let them become corporates or politicals.  The
problems of running a business (outwit your competition...catch those
industrial spies...deal with hostile--hey, an armed fleet approaching
your asteroid is about as hostile as it gets--takeover attempts) or
running a country (outwit our competition, I mean ideological opponents...
catch those spies...deal with hostile takeover attempts, I mean invasions
and rebels...is there an echo in here?) keeps people pretty busy.

One final note.  Just so everyone won't think all I do is try to make
my players miserable, I try to sometimes run just goofy adventures where
no one really gets hurt, even if they don't make much money.  If you want
a good "module" for this kind of thing--rent the Marx Brothers movie 
"Animal Crackers" and then let your players get invited to this kind of
party and be involved in finding the lost painting.  Even if you don't
want to do this, rent the movie, it's hysterical.  (For those who do
use the movie as a module, remember that Harpo Marx should never, NEVER
be given a loaded gun, no matter how often he "asks" to be allowed to
play with one.)

Take care all.  Enjoy.

     Mark




-------- TML Message #689 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 689
From: (Jo Jaquinta) jaymin@maths.tcd.ie
Subject: Representation of Spheres
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 89 15:56:22 GMT


    Most of you seem to be discussing things over my head. Literially.
I am not so much concerned with generating huge number of stars but things
of planet sized and lower.
    The reccomended grid for worlds looks something like this:

               /\    /\    /\    /\    /\
              /  \  /  \  /  \  /  \  /  \      I.e. a 20 sided dice.
             /____\/____\/____\/____\/____\
            /\    /\    /\    /\    /\    /
           /  \  /  \  /  \  /  \  /  \  /
          /____\/____\/____\/____\/____\/
          \    /\    /\    /\    /\    /
           \  /  \  /  \  /  \  /  \  /
            \/    \/    \/    \/    \/

    You put hexes down the sides (one for each size of the world gives
you a constant scale) and pentegrams on the corners. This is really peachy
and plesant but has several drawbacks if you want to try to implement this
on a computer (If you don't trust me, I leave it as an exercise).
    Firstly I will outline what is needed for a computer representation:
    1) There must be a simple way to thread the sphere. I.e. we must easialy
be able to visit every point once and only once.
    2) We must be able to find all represented points withing a certain
radius of our subject point. E.g. I need all nodes within two of this one.
    3) We must be able to trace a diameter in a small number of cardinal
directions eventually reaching our starting point.
    4) It must be recursively definable. I.e. we must be able to increase
the resolution infinately.

    So what do we do?
    Hexes are nice, traditional and great for flat surfaces but a bit of a
bollox when you hit the corners. I think triangles are out best bet. Lets
work through the criteria in reverse order.
    (4) Recursively definable:
       /\               /\               /\
      /  \             /  \             /8_\
     /    \           / 2  \           /\2 /\
    /      \   ==>   /______\    ==>  /9_\/10\  ==> ...
   /        \       /\      /\       /\7 /\6 /\
  /    1     \     /  \ 1  /  \     /11\/1_\/14\
 /            \   / 3  \  / 4  \   /\3 /\5 /\4 /\
/______________\ /______\/______\ /12\/13\/15\/16\    no problem.
    (3) diameter.
    Always stand in a triangle with our backs to a base. If we go through
the left face, then with our back to that in the new triange go through the
right face repeatedly we will circumnavagate the sphere. Choosing which
base and wether to go left or right first gives us six directions.
    (2) find all points within a radius
    If you assume that an adjacent triangle is a triangle sharing
a base you have no problem and minimal difficulty on corners. A more
attractive way is to have any triangle which shares a vertex be one
unit away. This has rather more difficulties.
    (1) threading the sphere.
    I haven't been able to come up with an algorithmical way to do this.
It is, of course, trivial if one numerically orders the triangles. This
brings us to my mental block. To come up with a numbering system for
the triangles of the sphere that caters for the conditions above.
    What this boils down to is that the above scheme is mathematically
elegant it needs four things to make it usefull. (4) a way of uniquely 
identifying {preferably with an integer, or ordered pair} each triangle
element on the sphere. This numbering system must remain compatible as
the resolution is increased. (3) A function that when given a location
id and a direction, returns a location id of the next triangle along 
that diameter. (2) A function that is passed a location and returns
a fixed number of locations distance one from the given location. (1)
A function that given a locations returns another location such that
if continually called with the return value it will cycle through all
locations before returning.
    Is there a fresh mind out there that can see what I can't?

    			-- Jo Jaquinta




-------- TML Message #690 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 690
From: (Jo Jaquinta) jaymin@maths.tcd.ie
Subject: GaelCon-89
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 89 15:57:19 GMT


    GAELCON-89 -- the first Irish International Games Competition

    Well for the participants it was a great success; financially it
was rather worse. My own little corner of it was the MegaTraveller
Role-Playing competition. We had planned for ten tables of eight
people with a terminal displaying library data on each table. Having
been roped into general organisation at the very end coupled with
hardware inconsistancies we only managed eight tables with sparodic
operation.
    Myself and the other two organisers (Lesley Grant & Oisin Murphy-
Lawless) put an awful lot of work into the scenario. In the end it
weighed in at 98 pages and 33,000 words. It was purely a role-playing
scenario. I.e. people were judged on how well they role-played. The
players were all playing doctors who had requisitioned space on a
luxary liner for a mission of mercy. All 41 NPCs of the ship were
detailed with loads of interaction. No personal objectives for the PCs
and no central plot.
    This had two effects. First you had the player that is used to
having paths lead out for them. The kind the referee has to lead around
by their nose. These were at a complete loss. They wandered around
provoking NPCs in a most undoctorlike fashion. Trying to make trouble
so "something would happen".
    Then you had the real role players. These had a field day. There was
a great variety in background amongst the NPCs and as we had play-tested
it ten times the referees were very familiar with them.
    If the whole scenario was played from day one to day five it would
probably take 18 hours. But then it was designed to be a 3.5 open ended
competition. If there are enough people interested (and there is the
space) I will upload them to the server.
				-- Jo Jaquinta



-------- TML Message #691 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 691
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 89 10:10 EST
From: 09NILLES%CUA.BITNET@cornellc.cit.cornell.edu
Subject: Powerful players and nuke's


RE: nukes

Assuming players were to purchase nukes on one of the multitude of black
markets that exits in the Imperium.  What is to say that the equipment,
with which to detonate the nuclear explosive, actually works.  If they
get the nuclear weapon from some back water planet with a minimal
technology to even build the things, they may not have perfected a
detonator.  Or as in the movie "The Manhatten project", I think, where
the boy steals the nuclear matereal.  His detonater that he builds is
partialy ruined by the radiation.  I am not saying the radion of the
weapon it self would set it off or break it.  But what about the powerfull
magnetic feilds created by the powerplants and the engines?  What effect
might they have on the detonator?

re: Powerfull players

The equipment that powerefull players is VERY delicate.  For instance,
the FGMP-14 and -15 along with the PGMP-14 have a relatively unlimited
number of shots.  EXCEPT if you read the note below the chart in either
Striker or Mercinary(I forget which), but it says this is the case only
if the player or someone recharges the fusion power pack and does routine
mantinance once a month.  So if the players don't take care of their
equipment, it is bound to get aged and thus faulty.  Look at cars.  If
you don't take care of it, even the best cars around, they will wear down
and break without sceduled maintenace.  And then any breakdown will be
relativly predictable.  So in order to keep things in top condition, they MUST
take care of their equipment.  Why do you think the routine maint. is
sceduled on star ships once a year?

                 Dave

+-----------------------------------------+
|          09nilles@cua.bitnet            |
| uunet!cua.bitnet!09nilles@uunet.UU.NET  |
| Fiver.Toadflax@f329.n109.z1.FIDONET.ORG |
+-----------------------------------------+
   Nuke 'um Till They Glow
       Then Shoot Them in the Dark

   Money Talks.
       Mine Only knows how to say bye.





-------- TML Message #692 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 692
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 89 09:53:29 -0600
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!uxc.cso.uiuc.edu!gslisa!gsliss!jcunning@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: misc. things




A few misc. things:

Some of you have had problems reaching me via "direct" E-mail.
This system I am using, I am told, will only recognize my
address if everything is in lower case letters; anything in
caps will bounce back.

I have received several messages indicating interest in High
Passage back issues. I'm happy to supply them-- all I ask is
$1 for each copy to cover postage, and please let me know of
your regular address so I know where to send them. If you're
interested, please drop me a line about what issues you want
and your post address, and I'll send 'em post haste. I also 
need your address to send copies of old JTAS articles. My
postal address is:

Jim Cunningham
1604 Coronado Dr. #7
Champaign, IL 61820

Regarding HP #1, I only have a couple of copies myself. We
only printed 1,000, and they were gone before we knew it.
You might try your local game convention auctions-- I've 
seen copies sold for less than cover price. Besides, #1 
was our first effort, and trust me, it's not that good (well,
it's better than any of the junk Group One ever did...).

Regarding sector data for the Imperium: DG is going to
put out the sector data of the Imperium on disk for most
popular computer formats; see the inside back cover of
The World Builder's Handbook for info. GDW used to have
a photocopied hard copy available called Sector Data which
you could order from them, but that was a while back and
it may very well no longer be available. They also put out
The Atlas of the Imperium which had "abbreviated" sector
maps with some infor like starport type and things. That's
out of print too.

Have a good weekend, my friends.

			Jim Cunningham
			Traveller Relic

Something we'll ner see department: A K'kree elevator operator.




-------- TML Message #693 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 693
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 89 13:21:28 -0500
From: (Mark Gellis) f3w@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Frontiers



I just read Paul's discussion of the frontier.  It is very similar to
my own, in terms of how law operates, etc.  I thought I would describe
the parameters of the "frontier" in my gameworld for anyone who wants
to use these ideas.

First, I don't use the Jump drive system; instead, solar systems are
linked by what I call hypergates--remember the star gates in 2001?  It's
the same "big machine that punches a hole through hyperspace" routine.
I do this for two reasons--one, I find it more plausible, and two, it
allows the GM greater control over who gets into any particular solar
system.  Hypergates can basically open a gateway to anywhere in the
universe, but there are problems with opening a gateway closer than
two or three billion km. from a star-sized mass.

Also, I don't believe in gravity control.  This means that spacecraft
boost at one gravity (or sometimes more than that, but not for very long;
obviously, spacecraft can have powerful engines that will let them go at
extreme speed for a while, and there are drugs that counteract some of the
effects of high gravity (for a while), etc.)  This means that besides the
standard "new solar system being colonized" frontier, you've got an even
bigger and better one waiting for players in every existing solar system.

The cometary halo.  

The cometary halo extends to about one third the distance to the next star.
About one light year.  Cometary nuclei are believed to be spaced about two
billion km. apart.  Roughly, that means one hundred billion to one trillion
cometary nuclei in any cometary halo/oort cloud.  Since it takes about
three months to travel one hundred billion km. at one gravity (coasting
about two thirds of that time because there is a limit to how much fuel
you can carry, even if you are using fusion engines), most of the cometary
halo is totally beyond the reach of any central authority.

So what, I hear you ask.  Comets are useless.  Big, dirty snowballs.  
Oh, contrare, mon frere (or however that's spelled).  Comets are (a) water,
(b) hydrogen (= fuel for fusion power plants), (c) a small percentage of
organic chemicals and silicates ( = raw materials for building materials
and synthesized foodstuffs and trade goods).  If you belong to a space-
industrialized society, comets certainly don't rank as high as a good
high metal content asteroid, but they are a real source of usable raw
materials.  (=habitats....and adventures).

So who the hell lives out there?  Well, anyone who finds an asteroid belt
with a population of two hundred billion two damned crowded.  Anyone who
feels that opportunities in the cometary halo with its quintillions of tons
of untapped and unclaimed raw materials make it worth the risks and hard-
ships of going out there.  (After all, when you have London, why would
anyone risk the wilderness of, say, Ohio?  Because there are opportunities.)
Anyone who is at odds with the ruling ideology.  (Yes, hippies in space.)
Or anyone who is running from the law, or exiled by the law.  Religious
cults.  Corporate outposts.  Research facilities.  Mining colonies.  
Pirate bases.  Rebel bases.  (Not to mention friendly, and unfriendly
military outposts placed in the halo so they can observe the inner system--
with big space telescopes...free floating antenae can be made of wire and
kilometers across in free fall--in safe isolation.)  All this and more.
Waiting for anyone with a little capital and enough nerve to stake a claim.
Just like our player characters, huh?

Well, I've rambled long enough.  Take care, all.  Enjoy.

     Mark



-------- TML Message #694 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 694
From: ("C. Harald Koch") chk@alias
Subject: Non-adventure adventures
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 89 14:35:52 EST


> One final note.  Just so everyone won't think all I do is try to make
> my players miserable, I try to sometimes run just goofy adventures where
> no one really gets hurt, even if they don't make much money.  If you want
> a good "module" for this kind of thing--rent the Marx Brothers movie 
> "Animal Crackers" and then let your players get invited to this kind of
> party and be involved in finding the lost painting.

We sometimes do things like this. We have "shore leave" adventures every
once in a while where we all go out bar hopping (getting thrown out of bars
causes us to move often). Our characters are the crew of a starship so we
play sailors on leave; carousing people out to have a boisterous good time.

Of course, we *always* get into some sort of trouble. Once two of the
characters decided to have a drag race in downtown Toronto... the resulting
multi-vehicle high speed chase was both amusing and destructive...

We even invented a skill, "carousing". useful for picking up members of the
opposite sex, *not* getting clobbered by people larger than oneself, etc.

It is fun to get away from adventuring and just have a good time... (And
yes, we do go out carousing in real life too; we just don't get into as much
trouble doing it).

- -- 
C. Harald Koch                        Alias Research, Inc., Toronto ON Canada
chk%alias@csri.utoronto.ca      chk@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu      chk@chk.mef.org
"There is no problem, no matter how large or how small, that cannot be solved
 by a suitable application of high explosives."               -Leo Graf, 2298




-------- TML Message #695 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 695
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 89 21:17:14 -0500
From: (Dumpmaster John) jco@ufl.edu
Subject: Maintenance



Do you people REALLY make your players say, "I'm doing maintenance on my rifle
and sharping my boot knife."  I would interpert this as very bored players.

Ship maintenance I can see, this takes special equipment and lots of time.
But unless there is an overwelming reason to believe that the work couldn't
have been performed.

Do the players have to say they are backing up there computers disk files?
How about cleaning there clothes?  :-)   

later
jco

"What would Rock and Roll be without feedback?" -- D. Gilmour
In Real Life:		UUCP: {gatech|mailrus}!uflorida!beach.cis.ufl.edu!jco
John C. Orthoefer	Internet: jco@beach.cis.ufl.edu
University of Florida	Floyd Mailing List: eclipse-request@beach.cis.ufl.edu



-------- TML Message #696 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 696
From: (Adrian Hurt) adrian%cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
Subject: Re: Nukes in Traveller
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 89 12:46:44 BST


> ...		I most emphatically DO NOT want a bunch of PCs with a
> subsidized merchant taking on squadrons of Vargr corsairs, Imperial
> cruisers, or whatever.  Believe me, some of my players would do it too!

Well, as Imperial cruisers are about the only ships legall allowed nukes,
the PC's life expectancy is rather short.  Vargr corsairs aren't allowed
them, but since when do they care what they're allowed?  They might have
problems getting them, though - even Vargr worlds are going to be careful]
who they allow to buy such weapons.

>      Basically, if you are going to permit the players to acquire heavy
> weaponry, be it nukes, battle dress and FGMP-14s, or whatever, you have
> to provide them with appropriate challenges to overcome.

Like opposition similarly armed.  That's the real problem with such things;
combat tends to be lethal.  At least if you get hit by a gauss rifle, you
can survive to pay the doctor.  By contrast, even a near miss from a FGMP
is dangerous, and a hit is fatal even if you're wearing the best armour.

 "Keyboard? How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk



-------- TML Message #697 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 697
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 89 09:00 EDT
From: B_MAHONE%UNHH.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: Does Norris have a family?


Metlay & Co.-

*Does* Norris have a family?  Who is heir to his titles?  Anyone know?

                                     -Bob

All opinions and material above is the responsibility of the originator.
Submissions: traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com, or uunet!dadla.wr.tek.com!traveller
Administrator: traveller-request@dadla.wr.tek.com (James Perkins)
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by Tektronix, Inc.

-------- TML Message #698 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 698
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 89 14:29:19 EST
From: (Chris Bartlett) cdba_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
Subject: Starship design



     I've been reading some of the old TML traffic, and I noticed that a 
common complaint with MegaTraveller is the starship design rules.  I have
encountered similar problems also, especially where the ships in the Imperial
Encyclopedia are concerned.  Has anyone noticed that the ships in the 
books don't obey the construction rules?  I mean, that if you try to build
similar ships, you can't get anything even close to the specifications 
listed in the Encyclopedia!  

     The reason that I'm bringing this up again is that I think that I might
have discovered something that will make the rules and ships match.  When
I first looked at the Imperiallines TJ transport in the Rebellion Sourcebook,
I thought something was really wrong with it. REALLY WRONG. Anyway, I sort
of redesigned it to suit my tastes, trying to get something like the TJ 
originally given in The Traveller Adventure.  The problem is that the 
fuel consumption values for fusion power plants make it impossible to 
fuel such a ship for the 30 days recommended for starships.  I found that
if I assumed that a TL15 fusion plant consumed 0.003 kiloliters of fuel per
hour, instead of the 0.009 listed, then my version of the TJ turned out to
closely match the original version ( old Traveller ).  Almost the same cargo
space, room for full sized staterooms, and enough power for inertial 
compensators, an Active EMS array, and a little left over for extra add-ons.
This is with a 11,600 Mw output power plant.  Also, I removed the nuclear
damper pack to save cargo space.  It just seemed dumb to have a ship as 
well-armed as the TJ blind because it didn't have any active sensors...

Subsequently, I've been assuming that all fusion power plants consume 
0.003 Kl of fuel per hour per Kl of power plant, regardless of tech level.
It seems to work.  I haven't had a chance to go over any other ships yet,
what with midterms here at the U of R, but if anyone could let me know if
my idea is applicable to the other ships, please do. One thing I'd 
particularly like to know is if the design errors affect not only GDW's
designs, but DGP's ship listings as well.  Could be a royal pain... :-)

Not that this has anything to do with ship design, but... Upon meeting
a female Vargr passenger, on of the PCs cracked, " Ok, so she's a dog. "
( Not in the Vargr's hearing, of course ). I thought it was funny...


Chris




-------- TML Message #699 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 699
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 89 14:54 EST
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: RE: Does Norris have a family?


[This came to jamesp@dadla.wr.tek.com, looks like it was meant for
traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com.  Watch those automatic reply headers! -- James]

I haven't the foggiest. All that's known about him is the blurb in the 
MegaTraveller rules and in the Rebellion sourcebook, and COACC mentions
that he has landholdings on the desert world of Yori, near Regina. Sorry.

metlay


-------- TML Message #700 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 700
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 89 16:45:23 PST
From: gazis@halley.arc.nasa.gov
Subject: THE CHALLENGE



     Mark has posed the question, 'How does one deal with the
Challenge posed by powerful characters?'  At first glance, this
appears to be a worthy question.  After all, powerful characters 
have a depressing tendancy to anhilate any obstacle which is 
placed in their path.  They make mincemeat of the most powerful 
NPCs.  In short, they take a GMs carefully designed and well 
balanced scenario and break it into little teeny pieces, a sorry 
fate.
      After days, hours, possibly even seconds of mind-numbing
cogitation, I believe that I have discovered a small problem with
one of the assumptions which underlies the question.  Rather
than attempt to describe this problem in detail, I offer this
short story with a moral:


                      THE CHALLENGE

     Morris Minor peered around the corner of the alley.  There
was no one in sight.  He blended back into the night and checked
his gear.
     He wore a skin-tight suit of Xyram, fine overlapping scales
which would resist explosions, energy, projectiles, or blades.  A
combat helmet and filters provided protection against sonic
attack or noxious gasses.  Servos in the armour gave him the
strength of many men.  The armour was covered with a correlation
envelope which rendered it invisible to vision, radar, and 
infra-red.
     His weapon was a Kodak HK-47 Instamatic, a powerful pulsed
laser weapon whose coherent beam could burn through the heaviest 
of armour, the mightiest of shields, or both, with equal facility. 
The effect the beam had on the unprotected flesh within was
alarming.  The weapon was not controlled or directed by anything 
so crude as a trigger.  It was connected directly to his nervous 
system, which nervous system had augmented to increase its speed
and was interfaced to sensors in his helmet.  Morris could 
encompass the destruction of anything that came within range of 
those sensors.  In an instant.  With but a single thought.
     The same augmentations which increased his speed also
rendered Morris invisible and immune to psionic powers.
     He was the perfect assasin.
     Morris crossed the street.  Were there anyone to observe,
they might have heard a faint whisper of wind.  They might have
seen the slightest flicker at the edge of their vision.  But no 
one listened.  No one saw.  Morris was one with the night.
     He reached his destination, a small machine set into the
wall of a corner building.  He activated a device which supressed
all sounds.  He removed a small card from an envelope at his
waist and inserted it into the machine.  A panel slid up to reveal
a small keyboard.  Morris entered the code he had been taught.
     The machine gave no immediate response.
     Morris repeated the code.
     A message flashed on the screen.
     "Dear Customer, we regret that this ATM is out of order.  
Thank you for banking with IPBank."
     Morris stared at the machine in rage.  Was it possible that
he could be thwarted so easily?  This was scarcely likely.  He
was Morris Minor, the Perfect Assasin!  He waited for the machine 
to return his ATM card.  He would re-insert the card and try a 
second time!
     Nothing happened.
     Realization came quickly.  The machine had swallowed his ATM
card!  How could such a thing occur?  Surely such a thing was not
possible!  Was he not Morris Minor, the Perfect Assasin?  He
staggered backwards in astonishment and was run over by a truck.

AND THE LESSON WE LEARN FROM THIS STORY IS:

     Combat skills are not always particularly useful to a member 
of an advanced technological civilization.


Hail Chaos!

Paul R. Gazis                        
gazis@hal.arc.nasa.gov   or
gazis%hal.span@ames.arc.nasa.gov   or
something like that



-------- TML Message #701 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 701
Date: Mon Nov 13 16:15:03 1989
From: richard@agora.hf.intel.COM (Richard Johnson)


Subject: Lawlessness and Frontiers
Date: Mon Nov 13 16:01:18 1989
Message-Id: <8911131601.AA11850@agora.hf.intel.com>
From: richard@agora.hf.intel.com (Richard Johnson)


My two cents worth on Frontiers...

As an experiment, I made up one subsector, nestled between the
Imperium and the Zhodani Consulate, as a rational anarchy.  This
is an extremely loose confederation of worlds that maintains its
own peculiar codes of behavior, mainly for self-protection.

Location:
It is just beyond the frontiers of both empires.  Sort of a "neutral
zone" that neither empire wants to disrupt.  This allows the confederation
to "borrow" liberally from both cultures without fear of armed response.

Law:
The confederates figured out if they went the way of imperial caste/
democracy, the Zhodani would have to interfere.  Likewise, if they
became socialist, the imperium would send ships.  Thus they formally
declared themselves an "anarchy", proclaiming the rights of each
individual the highest morality.

The consequense has been that people walk around "packing" fairly
heavy arms, but are incredibly polite.  Insurance companies have
a lot of influence, but only over people they insure -- and a LOT
of people have opted for chancing their own liability.

Characters (and players) have had really mixed feelings about
their adventures in this subsector.  Those who are inclined to
commerce love it - no taxes.  Those who were born high-caste
hate it - no one cowtows to them, and they feel "threatened" by
all those guns.

Frontier:
I think the frontier here, really, is in human relations.  Characters
and players find lots of interesting, new, ways to relate.

I'll talk about this subsector more, only if you ask for it (I'm
trying really hard to cut down on talking).

Richard Johnson
richard@agora.hf.intel.com




-------- TML Message #702 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 702
From: ("45252-Peter L. Berghold") wrgate.wr.tek.com!uunet.uu.net!allegra!violin!plb@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: Powerfull PC's
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 89 8:48:21 EST


After reading the humorous treatise on how to deal with powerfull PC's, a
referee who's campaign I played in came to mind.   Whenever PC's became too 
powerfull they would either become part of the establishment and therefore 
be too busy to be a problem, or a plague would break out.  Rather effective.
Then there was always the problem of taxes, etc.   In his campaign you couldn't
outrun the Imperium.  They always eventually got their man.  

Pete
- -- 
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */
/*		Peter L. Berghold					*/
/*		System Administrator					*/
/*		AT&T Red Hill Systems Administration Group		*/
/*		1F138	+1 (201) 615-4419				*/
/*		EMAIL (UUCP):	{uunet!allegra|att}!violin!plb		*/
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */




-------- TML Message #703 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 703
From: ("45252-Peter L. Berghold") wrgate.wr.tek.com!uunet.uu.net!allegra!violin!plb@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: A quick question.
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 89 8:52:26 EST


A quick question for the members of the mailing list at large:  How many of 
you out there have access to 1) troff and it's cousins and 2) nawk?  I am 
putting the finishing touches on an awk script that may be of use to others and 
I want to see if it will be.

The script takes the output from a traveller starmap generator program that is 
text based and preens it to be compatible with [et]roff starmap and all. It is 
almost finished and it looks good!   

Pete

- -- 
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */
/*		Peter L. Berghold					*/
/*		System Administrator					*/
/*		AT&T Red Hill Systems Administration Group		*/
/*		1F138	+1 (201) 615-4419				*/
/*		EMAIL (UUCP):	{uunet!allegra|att}!violin!plb		*/
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */




-------- TML Message #704 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 704
Subject: Re: THE CHALLENGE
Date: 14 Nov 89 08:35:05 PST (Tue)
From: jamesp



Ah, here's my $0.02.

Or, if you are prone to having trigger-happy players, you could always
set them up for a horrible case of mistaken identity, where they blow
the head off some small, helpless innocent, like a small child.  Or
subject them to an enemy that can't be plowed over (say they enslave
children, for example, and the children are forced to confront the
all-invincible PC).  In theory this could force your players into a
moral quandary where they would actually have to begin to think...

Perhaps I'm just too manipulative as a Referee...



-------- TML Message #705 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 705
From: ("45252-Peter L. Berghold") wrgate.wr.tek.com!uunet.uu.net!allegra!violin!plb@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: Re: Frontier
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 89 14:43:47 EST


>> 
>> 
>> Subject: Lawlessness and Frontiers
>> Date: Mon Nov 13 16:01:18 1989
>> Message-Id: <8911131601.AA11850@agora.hf.intel.com>
>> From: richard@agora.hf.intel.com (Richard Johnson)
>> 
>> 
>> My two cents worth on Frontiers...
>> 
>> As an experiment, I made up one subsector, nestled between the
>> Imperium and the Zhodani Consulate, as a rational anarchy.  This
>> is an extremely loose confederation of worlds that maintains its
>> own peculiar codes of behavior, mainly for self-protection.
>> 
	[ Uh Oh! ]
>> Location:
>> It is just beyond the frontiers of both empires.  Sort of a "neutral
>> zone" that neither empire wants to disrupt.  This allows the confederation
>> to "borrow" liberally from both cultures without fear of armed response.
>> 
>> 
	[ Further description deleted ]

I had a similar scenario of a campaign of mine.  Only the reason that neither
the  Zho's or the Imperium had much sway in the buffer zone was that after so
much fighting there wasn't enough of either government's forces left for them
to fight one another.   Also in my campaign there was a pocket of the "Ancients"
that survived their final war.  Their tech level was high enough to bring both
parties to the bargaining table.  (Here goes shades of Star Trek's Origani 
Treaty.)   Both sides were threatened by the "Ancients" with destruction of 
their forces if they did not honor a 20 X 24 parsec buffer zone between them.
As a result, this area was left to their own devices and set up several small
confederacies within this space.   Hence, why most of the adventuring was done
within this area.   


Pete




- -- 
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */
/*		Peter L. Berghold					*/
/*		System Administrator					*/
/*		AT&T Red Hill Systems Administration Group		*/
/*		1F138	+1 (201) 615-4419				*/
/*		EMAIL (UUCP):	{uunet!allegra|att}!violin!plb		*/
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */




-------- TML Message #706 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 706
Date: Tue, 14 Nov 89 19:24:08 EST
From: (wilson m liaw) macgyver@cis.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Troff



	Well, I have access to troff.

				Mac



-------- TML Message #707 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 707
From: (Adrian Hurt) adrian%cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
Subject: Re: THE CHALLENGE
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 89 10:20:13 BST


>From Richard Johnson:

Re: The Frontier

> Law:
> The confederates figured out if they went the way of imperial caste/
> democracy, the Zhodani would have to interfere.  Likewise, if they
> became socialist, the imperium would send ships.  Thus they formally
> declared themselves an "anarchy", proclaiming the rights of each
> individual the highest morality.

As I see it, within both the Imperium and Zhodani Consulate there exist all
sorts of world governments.  There are caste democracies within the Zhodani
Consulate (in fact, I thought the Consulate was one).  There are probably
socialist governments in the Imperium - they'd count as either democracies or
self-perpetuating oligarchies, depending on the referee's view of socialism
and whether it was Western or Eastern type socialism.

>From James Perkins

Re: The Challenge

> Or, if you are prone to having trigger-happy players, you could always
> set them up for a horrible case of mistaken identity, where they blow
> the head off some small, helpless innocent, like a small child.  Or
> subject them to an enemy that can't be plowed over (say they enslave
> children, for example, and the children are forced to confront the
> all-invincible PC).

Just in case the PC's aren't susceptible to such moral dilemmas, because they
don't have morals (likely, given our earlier descriptions), it does no harm
to have something really powerful in reserve.  Something which can remind them
they're not Masters of the Universe.  Something which can eliminate them with
much the same ease as they'd eliminate a small, not-too-bright rodent. A few
possibilities:

Imperial Marines.  I used the "Striker" combat rules, and just about never let
PC's get hold of the high-tech battledress, which was impervious to anything
except FGMP's.  Marines get the stuff as standard.  But, if the PC's do get
hold of FGMP's and/or such battledress:

Imperial Marine Grav APC.  As seen in Striker, book 3.  Armoured to resist
anything short of a tac nuke, and armed with a heavy rapid-pulse fusion gun,
a range of nuclear missiles, and a laser carbine.  In addition, the Marines
inside can stick their FGMP's through ports in the side and fire out.  But
if the PC's do have tac nukes, or if they just sit in their starship and try
to zap the APC from orbit:

Tigress class dreadnought.  As seen in Supplement 8, Fighting Ships.  Maximum
armour, maximum firepower, enough screens and computers so that the PC's nukes
won't get near it.  It also carries 300 fighters in case you want to give the
PC's one last warning.  If the PC's have something capable of taking out one of
these, use a full squadron.  If they can beat that, there's something wrong
with the universe.

Summary: Peace through superior firepower!  If they think being trigger happy
solves everything, show them just how right they are.

 "Keyboard? How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk



-------- TML Message #708 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 708
Subject: A quick question. (fwd)
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 89 8:06:30 EST
From: (Jonathan Bayer) jbayer@ispi.COM


Forwarded message:

> 
> A quick question for the members of the mailing list at large:  How many of 
> you out there have access to 1) troff and it's cousins and 2) nawk?  I am 
> putting the finishing touches on an awk script that may be of use to others and 
> I want to see if it will be.
> 

I do, and this sounds interesting.


JB
- -- 
Jonathan Bayer		Intelligent Software Products, Inc.
(201) 245-5922		500 Oakwood Ave.
jbayer@ispi.COM		Roselle Park, NJ   07204    



-------- TML Message #709 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 709
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 89 10:29:58 EST
From: (Greg Givler - QA) givler@cbmvax.commodore.COM
Subject: Troff



I also have access, to troff, that is. So I for one would like to see what you
have done.

Greg

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Givler                        Q-Link: GregGivler
QA Analyst                         CompuServe: Greg Givler 76702,647
Commodore QA (Software)            GEnie: G.Givler
215-431-9100                       INTERNET: givler@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Wild Whores couldn't keep me away!" -- George Fransisco
"That's Horses, George" -- Sikes -- Alien Nation --  Fox Broadcasting --
===============================================================================



-------- TML Message #710 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 710
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 89 19:00:53 -0500
From: (Mark Gellis) f3w@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: The Challenge



I've been reading the responses to my initial question--Paul's is great,
except my players aren't quite that stupid...well, most of the time--and
I thought I would share some of my own techniques. 

The two real obstacles are, I think, fairness and elegance.  Anyone can
make an arbitrary decision that the NPC gets the first shot, and gets a 
hit.  I don't think anyone here does that to their players (with the
rare exception of a player who is REALLY asking for it), so that's not
too much of a problem.  

The peace-through-superior-firepower solution is one that I generally
have to rely on.  You have to be careful, though; unless you simply want
to make certain things totally off limits to a group of characters, you
can only make your NPCs a little more powerful than they are.  (Yes,
you have a five hundred ton corvette with a particle beam...it can blow
the socks off any unarmed merchants...uh oh, is that a sixty thousand ton
battleship on your screens?  Oh no, Mr. Bill....!)  And even here, you
have to be careful to keep the situation from simply being one of who
gets the first three really good rolls.  Sometimes, of course, it can
work, if the aim of the adventure is to take out a larger opponent's
forces via guerilla tactics, identifying weak points and hitting those
and staying away from the ones you can't beat--the decision being left
to your players.  In short, the problem here is that it is easy to
hit your players with something that they simply cannot stop (even if
you have Fleet Tactics +5 and a couple of dreadnoughts, the GM can always
send twice as many ships at you under a guy with +8) but giving them
something that they have a good chance of beating, although they will
have to sweat to do it.

I've sometimes found, by the way, that the most enjoyable adventures
are ones where people have to figure something out, as opposed to simply
blowing it up (of course, sometimes they have to do this, too).  I 
once had my players on their corvette being followed by a probe that
stayed at the borders of their sensor range so they could not get very
good information on it.  It was simply keeping tabs on them.  Didn't
do anything else.  Had them spooked, though, until they found out what
it was.

The trouble is that is it hard to come up with good mysteries.  Commando
missions are easy because they're really all the same; the only thing that
changes is the precise mission objectives and the skill levels and weapons
of the NPCs shooting at them.

Ho hum.  Take care all.



-------- TML Message #711 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 711
Date: Wed, 15 Nov 89 19:07:42 -0500
From: (Mark Gellis) f3w@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Jokes and women



I was curious if anyone in the mailing list has women running as player
characters.  A few of my female friends run in my game world.  They are
often a lot more level-headed than some of my male friends who run.  I
was wondering if anyone had any comments on this subject.

Also, for those interested in cruel jokes to play on their players...

Androids can basically look like any humanoid, right?  And a good AI
program can give them pretty much any "personality," right?  The next
time you're bored, and want to throw a random encounter at your
players, let them run into one of the Chuck Jones/Mel Blanc cartoon
characters.  The android will be a lot smarter than your player 
characters (well, most of them) and have a variety of neat, annoying
gadgets at its command (all from the Acme company, of course).  It
will also have a good enough Dex. to avoid being shot, at least the
first time.

How well will your characters do against Bugs Bunny or the Road Runner?
Think about it.




-------- TML Message #712 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 712
From: ("Brent L. Woods") woodsb@gn.ecn.purdue.edu
Subject: Re: Jokes and women
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 89 3:12:18 EST



 In message8911160007.AA07078@mentor.cc.purdue.edu> Mark Gellis writes:
 >
 >I was curious if anyone in the mailing list has women running as player
 >characters.

     Yes.  Well, I used to.  A while ago, we changed game systems and
GMs (we tend to do that periodically).  It's a fairly large group--four
women, five men.  We've ended up in some, ah, *interesting* situations,
too.

 >             A few of my female friends run in my game world.  They are
 >often a lot more level-headed than some of my male friends who run.  I
 >was wondering if anyone had any comments on this subject.

     Sure.  Level-headed?  Yes, I agree with that.  Also (at least in
the case of the ones I game with) *much* more vicious and bloodthirsty.
Straight-forward, too.  We have this one gentleman in our group who
tends to look for hideously complicated solutions to just about anything
(we all know someone like that, don't we?  :-) ).  Half the time he
gets his thunder stolen by one particular lady who gets tired of his
dithering (to tell the truth, she isn't alone) and does something
direct (like tossing a grenade into a room without worrying about
whether or not it's occupied).

     Now, is it just my particular set of female friends, or are most
(all?) female gamers (vaguely) like this?  I mean, level-headed, direct,
dangerous, and no nonsense.  I'm just wondering about *gamers*, too.

 >Also, for those interested in cruel jokes to play on their players...

     Oh, always...  ;-)

 >Androids can basically look like any humanoid, right?  And a good AI
 >program can give them pretty much any "personality," right?

     Right...  The possibilities are very interesting...  I'd better
not describe the Biff-bot, though...  :-)

- --
     Brent Woods

INTERNET:  woodsb@gn.ecn.purdue.edu
USNAIL:  320 Brown St., #406  /  W. Laf., IN  47906
PHONE:  +1 (317) 743-8421 (voice)




-------- TML Message #713 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 713
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 89 08:47:31 -0500 (EST)
From: (Ronald Henry Daubel) rd1g+@andrew.cmu.edu
Subject: Re: The Challenge


Maybe I'm a little slow, but doesn't anyone here ever watch Star Trek?

Both the old and the new programs give GM's amazing ideas on what they
can do to their players next.  True, your players probably watch ST also,
but if you can't modify an episode sufficiently to give your players a
decently complex situation, then you're not thinking hard enough.

My personal favorite is setting up parallel worlds with facist (sp?) govm'ts
and letting the players get tangled up dealing for arms, drugs, etc.

Ron
ArpaNet:  rd1g@andrew.cmu.edu
Bitnet: Arioch@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu

"I don't know kid, I can imagine an awful lot."
                          -Han Solo



-------- TML Message #714 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 714
From: ("45252-Peter L. Berghold") wrgate.wr.tek.com!uunet.uu.net!allegra!violin!plb@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: Awk script.
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 89 8:46:41 EST


I have gotten several positive replies to my script that I am developing.  I 
have a last(?) bug that I am trying to iron out, and as soon as I am done with
fixing that, I will post the thing as a "shar".   

The final bug I have found is that on some versions of troff/pic it chokes on 
the hex map at the end and screws up the aspect ratio.   Probably something 
simple I am overlooking,  so you'll be seeing this shortly.


Pete

- -- 
/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */
/*		Peter L. Berghold					*/
/*		System Administrator					*/
/*		AT&T Red Hill Systems Administration Group		*/
/*		1F138	+1 (201) 615-4419				*/
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/* - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  */




-------- TML Message #715 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 715
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 89 10:16 EST
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: "Jokes and women"? I wouldn't have phrased it QUITE that way.



On women in TRAVELLER....

I have run a great number of female players and characters in my campaigns, 
including an all-female party that did quite well in comparison to the male 
parties I was running at other times. The ladies felt that the guys weren't 
giving them a fair shake, and as it turned out, they were right. The only 
tough part was explaining to people who didn't know me what I did on Friday 
nights ("Well, I go into a deserted student lounge in my dorm with five 
women, and we, uh, play games."). |->

The other big opportunity for women in my games is the Near Miss series of 
adventures, where four of the eight primary characters are women. It's been my 
experience, at the past six conventions where I've run Near Miss, that the 
players get into character best and have the easiest time of it when they run 
characters of the same sex as theirs. The closest to this ideal I've ever 
managed was three gals and five guys, which was phenomenal. I'd dearly love to 
run at least one Near Miss session with a real four-and-four split before I 
retire from cons; even better is when you get a boyfriend and girlfriend or 
husband and wife playing a married couple. If they're good role-players, the 
characters will come to life anyway, but the extra interplay from people who 
know each other THAT well ;-> gives the game an extra touch of realism. One 
young lady, who won an award for best job of roleplaying, actually started
screaming when her husband's character got shot last game! It scared the heck
out of everyone else in the gaming hall, though....

I love the opportunities that TRAVELLER allows for women. It's one of the few 
SF RPGs that doesn't force women into male-libido-stimulating poses, whether 
deliberately or otherwise. The rules are strictly free of gender bias (except 
for one or two non-human species), and GDW and DGP, rather than trying to 
attract buyers (usually young, male, and hopelessly, er, inexperienced) with 
book and gamebox covers that depict women as blaster-wielding sex/death/danger 
objects (e.g. Living Steel, Space Opera, SpaceMaster, or anything involving
art by Larry Elmore), show women in TRAVELLER as being attractive, perhaps, 
but always competent and in control of their lives (e.g. the TARSUS set, or 
the art of level-headed female artists like Donna Barr and Liz Danforth), fit 
partners for men but never dominatrixes or helpless damsels. Refreshing. 

For those who've never run with women, I recommend the experience strongly. 
My one regret about my current TRAVELLER party, which is 100% mature, smart, 
and skilled, is that it's also 100% male. Some of our lady friends, who are by
and large excellent gamers themselves but who don't feel the need to game on a
weekly basis, have elected to form a "Traveller Widows' Club" and get together
and socialize, ELSEWHERE, while we game. Oh, well. *sigh*




-------- TML Message #716 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 716
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 89 11:12 EST
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: And speaking of mysteries....




Deep Space, somewhere between Suleiman and Easter in the Solomani Rim: 1117

	"Heads up, gang," Grant muttered. The undulating greyness of 
jumpspace gave way to the star-dotted velvet black of deep space, and the 
Serendipity's sensor boards lit up and began processing data frantically.
Grant looked up and out of the huge viewport, scanning the skies for any 
unusual sights. "Kherk," he said absently, "How's it look?"
	"Working on it," Kherkhoulloth said mildly, practiced hands flying 
over the controls of the nav panel. A threedee star map appeared before him, 
rotated slowly and shifted a tiny bit. He barked loudly, a Vargr's best try at 
a laugh. "Harf! Kakh, I'm good! I am so GOOD! I want a raise, Cap'n!"
	"I assume," Grant said drily, "That we're where we want to be."
	"Close enough to hit with a thrown rock!"
	"Nice work. Start setting up our next jump, and pulling fuel from the 
reserve tanks. We're halfway between nowhere and nowhere right now, and I 
don't want to be stuck here any longer than I have to."
	"Aye, sir."
	Grant flicked on the shortcom and called, "Power deck!"
	"Sanchez here, sir." The voice sounded harried but happy, he noted.
	"How's she look, Wu-Shun?" 
	"Slicker than a stinkscrabbler's egg sacs, sir," came the cheery 
reply. "I just have to do some cooldown checks and make sure the crystals are 
okay, and then we can power up for jump again."
	"Great. Get on it." Grant changed channels, not waiting for an 
acknowledgement, knowing that Sanchez wouldn't have bothered anyway.
	"Tactical," came the booming, resonant voice over the speakers. 
	Grant sighed wearily. "Turn down your voxbox, O'Connor," he muttered, 
"You're not impressing anyone."
	"As you wish, sir," replied a woman's sexy contralto.
	"Oh, very funny," Grant snapped. "Look, do you even have a setting on 
that thing for your own voice?"
	"Of course, sir," said a man's strong, thickly accented tenor. "But 
it's been so long since I lost my throat, I don't even remember what it sounds 
like."
	"Oh, tragedy," Kherkhoulloth sang from his station, "My heart erupts 
in a thousand bleeding holes at the very thought of it!"
	"I like you, Kherk," came the voice. "That's why I'm not going to 
crush you like a rotten skymelon."
	"What's Tactical saying?" Grant interjected. "If you don't mind."
	"A lot of things, sir," O'Connor replied. "We have ghosts of any 
number of things: interstellar hydrogen, artifacts from old stellar flareups, 
and we're not far from Suleiman's Oort cloud, so there are comets to deal with 
as well."
	"I reiterate," Grant said in a level tone. "What's Tactical saying?"
	"We're all alone, sir. No immediate risks."
	"THANK you, O'Connor," Grant said. "Keep me posted if the deep scans 
come up with anything. We'll be out of here in an hour or less, but--"
	"Whoa!" O'Connor interrupted him. "I have something here, sir!"
	"What is it?" Grant called up the Tactical display at his station, and 
Kherkhoulloth looked over at it curiously.
	"Metallic object. Don't know how I missed it on the first sweep; it's
big. Really big." 
	"Take it apart," Grant ordered. "Every scan we have."
	"I'm on it, sir. Hector, arm and warm the main guns."
	"Main turrets armed and ready," came the imperturbable computer's 
voice. "Target select on unidentified object confirmed and tracking."
	"I want those scans, Daryavayush!"
	"You've got them, sir," O'Connor replied. "Up on the display."
	The holovid began streaming numbers across the vague, grainy outline 
of the distant object. Grant scanned them, reading aloud, as they went by.
	"Cold to almost the background level, no air, no life, little or no 
organics, no power sources, no radiation, volume echo versus densitometer 
indicating it's hollow, a ship of some kind. But totally dead." Grant shook 
his head. "Weird."
	"I vote we leave it alone and get out of here," Kherkhoulloth gulped.
	"Oh, no! We have to explore it! Let's get in closer and have a look!"
Grant and Kherkhoulloth turned as Jaeger stepped onto the bridge, vidcam in 
hand and rolling as he walked. He pointed the powerful camera to the heavens 
and looked about for the mysterious object. "I don't see it," he complained.
	"We're a good two hours' trip from it," Grant said. "And I'm not sure 
we want to get any closer."
	"It could be a trap," Kherkhoulloth suggested uneasily. "Let's jump!"
	"I recommend exploring it, sir," O'Connor's voice chided. "This is a 
very strange occurrence, and I'd hate to pass it up."
	"You wouldn't pass up a chance to get a nuke dropped on you, just to 
have the experience!" Kherkhoulloth snarled.
	"No," O'Connor replied mildly. "I've HAD nukes dropped on me before. 
How do you think I ended up looking like I do?"
	"Aegh," the Vargr muttered. "Sir, our ESCAPE course is laid in."
	"Thanks, Kherk. Plot a low-fuel loop for that...THING out there."
	"You're going to look at it?" Kherkhoulloth said disbelievingly. 
"WHY, for the Old Ones' sake?"
	"Because it shouldn't be there," Grant said. "Other ships have 
disappeared in this region before. If it's a ship, it may be salvageable."
He smiled thinly at Kherkhoulloth. "You know, MONEY?"
	"Ah!" Kherkhoulloth nodded sagely. "That's one word I understand!"
	Grant smiled at that; if nothing else, the navigator was predictable 
in his unpredictability. He switched the intercom to all-ship. "Sanchez, can
you give us some maneuver power while running the jump prep?" 
	"Sure, but not once we start the charging sequence...."
	"Hold off on that," Grant said thoughtfully. "we've got something to 
look at first." 
	Jaeger smiled at that. "A real, live ghost ship," he said happily. 
"The drama and pathos of a crew lost forever in space, the Flying Dutchman of 
the Solomani Rim. It'll make great copy for my next movie."
	"I'm hoping it's a real DEAD ghost ship," O'Connor said softly. "If 
it's alive and we can't tell that from here, this could be a very interesting 
trip, in all the wrong ways."
	"We're going," Grant said, taking the control stick. "Prepare for one 
point five gees."
	Kherkhoulloth slapped a hand to his forehead. "Why am I convinced that
we're going to regret this?" 




-------- TML Message #717 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 717
From: CHOINSKI@env.prime.COM
Date: 16 Nov 89 11:37:27 EST


- -=============================================================================-
||The two real obstacles are, I think, fairness and elegance.  Anyone can
||make an arbitrary decision that the NPC gets the first shot, and gets a
||hit.  I don't think anyone here does that to their players (with the
||rare exception of a player who is REALLY asking for it), so that's not
||too much of a problem.
||
||The peace-through-superior-firepower solution is one that I generally
||have to rely on.  You have to be careful, though; unless you simply want
||to make certain things totally off limits to a group of characters, you
||can only make your NPCs a little more powerful than they are.  (Yes,

The "PTSF" metheod can be used quite well, even without actually using it
but through threat.  In one 2300 session I wanted two of my players to get
captured by some anarchists so that they could get useful information out
of it.  One was a "mostly harmless" administrator/field agent with little
in the way of combat skills.  The other was a ground military/space military
(aka. ground pounder) type.  The big problem was that the GP player always
walked around in combat plate with an assult rifle.  So the session went
like this ("Mike" is the administrator, "Andy" is the military man, other
names are assorted characters and "Me" is my narration)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Me: Well, you spend the last 15 minutes putting the fuel in the cargo area
    of your tram when you hear a deep voice behind you say "Don't Move".

Mike: I put my hands up and turn around slowly.

Andy: I dive to the side and look at who it is.

Mike: Who doe sit look like?

Me:  A real big guy in rigid breastplate and inertial armor carying a
     12-81 magnum.

Andy: So, I have combat plate.

Mike: How can he carry that?  That can only be fired from a tripod?

Me: He's from King.

Mike: Oh.  Okay, we surrender.  Andy, put your gun down before you get killed.
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
With andy walking around armed and armored to the max, I needed a weapon that
could penetrate his armor.  A 12-81 is a VERY BIG GUN, about 1.5 meters long
that fires a 12mm by 81mm round.  In the 2300 armor system, a 1 DP gun can
penetrate 1 cm of steel.  Combat plate is rated at AV 1.  The 12-81 has a
penetration of DP 4.  True, it is NORMALLY only fired from a bipod mount.
So I made the guy come from King, a world where the people are DNA modified
to handle the 3 gees of gravity (Imagine a Jinxian, but of normal height).
Mike and Andy were sufficiently cowed so that I could have them brought before
the head anarchist so he could, like all good villians, leak some parts of
his plans to his helpless captives.  In the long run, this "spur of the moment"
character became a major thorn in the side of all the players.  I would
have loved to have him get away to be a future annoyance to them, but they
were too persistant in hunting him down later on and he bought it.

I guess things are just easier in the 2300 world to balance out tough PCs.
Even with the best armor, a shaped grenade or FTE-10 gaus sniper rifle will
still blow your head off, and no matter how many life points you have, a shot
to the head with a .22 pistol can still kill you if you are unarmored.
- -============================================================================-
 Burton Choinski                                       choinski@env.prime.com
   Prime Computer, Inc.                                  (508) 879-2960 x3233
   Framingham, Ma.  01701
 Disclaimer:  Down! Down! Down! Out! Out! Out! Mine! Mine! Mine!
- -============================================================================-
- -============================================================================-
 Burton Choinski                                       choinski@env.prime.com
 Prime Computer, Inc.                                    (508) 879-2960 x3233
 Framingham, Ma.  01701
- -============================================================================-
          Disclaimer:  Hey, not me man ...  musta been my evil twin!




-------- TML Message #718 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 718
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 89 12:05:58 EST
From: (Chris Bartlett) cdba_ltd@uhura.cc.rochester.edu
Subject: Re: THE CHALLENGE




     In regard to Mark's question, ( by the way, thanks for the kind 
words, Mark ), I've never let my players get to the point where they
were so powerful as some of the PCs everybody's been describing, but
I suspect that I keep a tighter rein on my players' destructive impulses
than most referees.  I tend to run my games like Pete and Adrian described,
where the players can do pretty much what they want, as long as they 
don't mess with the Imperial authorities.  My players tend to be very
pro-Imperial anyway, trying to stay on the good side of the law.  
Remember The Traveller Adventure?  After discovering the meson gun plot,
their first impulse was to go to the Imperial authorities.  Loyal citizens,
all. Not that they aren't devious in their own ways, but they managed to
get on the good side of a certain naval intelligence officer and wanted
to stay that way.

     Enough digression.  One way I keep the PCs from getting too powerful
is to keep them relatively poor.  This works when they want to buy black
market arms and are charged many times the list price for them.  Making
high-tech weaponry hard to acquire ( ever try to find a high TL world
with a low enough law level to actually buy a laser rifle legally? )
is usually sufficient, and the PCs desire to advance themselves 
financially proves to be an excellent incentive to take those risky
jobs that PCs always seem to get...   And, like Paul said, combat 
skills aren't always the most useful.  "A Marine can do two things:
Kill, and wait around until he can kill some more." :-)

    Did anybody look at my fuel consumption idea?  It looks like it
will work for the 10 ton fighter, too. (Although the fighter needs a
bigger power plant )  Sigh.


Chris




-------- TML Message #719 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 719
From: ("45252-Peter L. Berghold") wrgate.wr.tek.com!uunet.uu.net!allegra!violin!plb@tektronix.TEK.COM
Subject: Postprocessor for the "ST" program
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 89 13:08:08 EST


As I promised, here is the awk script set that I wrote to postprocess the 
ASCII output from the program "ST" into [et]roff compatible input specification.
This will allow you to edit the information as you see fit and as well, add 
things to the information to make it more complete.   The star map is 
rendered in PIC format as well.   It probably could be greatly improved upon 
and I invite the programmers out there to hack away at it and come up with 
whatever improvements you can think of.   

The working script itself was written for the NAWK version of awk because of 
the ability to break the script up into modular units easier.  In fact it 
almost is like programming in C! 

Enjoy!


Pete


#---------------------------------- cut here ----------------------------------
# This is a shell archive.  Remove anything before this line,
# then unpack it by saving it in a file and typing "sh file".
#
# Wrapped by 45252-Peter L. Berghold <plb@violin> on Thu Nov 16 13:02:45 1989
#
# This archive contains:
#	README		do_map		do_map.awk	
#
# Error checking via wc(1) will be performed.
# Error checking via sum(1) will be performed.

LANG=""; export LANG
PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:$PATH; export PATH

if sum -r </dev/null >/dev/null 2>&1
then
	sumopt='-r'
else
	sumopt=''
fi

echo x - README
sed 's/^@//' >README <<'@EOF'
@@(#)
@@(#)README	1.1




What is this program and why was it written?   When I recieved a copy of the 
program "st" I was suitably impressed with it.  However, being left with the 
choice of outputs of either text or postscript left a little to be desired.
I wanted to be able to add comments and such to the resultant output and then 
print all this information via eroff to my laser printer.  I even wanted the 
hex map for a subsector printed out as well.   

I began hacking at an awk script to do this for me, and the result after many 
hours of tweaking ended up being the product you see here.  To use the script
set you execute:

	do_map [seed number] > file 

	-or-

	do_map [seed_number] | pic  .... etc ....


Some of my own complaints about this script:

	1) Stars are not "shaded" in.   In the postscript output facility of 
	"st" the stars are filled in.   I liked that.  Unfortunately PIC has
	no way of doing this (boo hiss!).

	2) No facility flags in the hexes.   Maybe next release.

	3) Stars are not centered.   I don't know why.  Pic is being
	ostreporous about this.   


I wholeheartedly release this set of scripts to the public domain. I don't 
claim that they are "the end", and probably could be improved upon greatly.


	Send all questions, complaints, bug reports, flowers and 
	brickbats to:

			Peter L. Berghold
			AT&T Red Hill 
			(201) 615-4419
			UUCP: {uunet!allegra|att}!violin!plb

@EOF
set `sum $sumopt <README`; if test $1 -ne 7787
then
	echo ERROR: README checksum is $1 should be 7787
fi
set `wc -lwc <README`
if test $1$2$3 != 482431421
then
	echo ERROR: wc results of README are $* should be 48 243 1421
fi

chmod 444 README

echo x - do_map
cat >do_map <<'@EOF'
#!/bin/ksh
#
#	@(#) SRCID: @(#)do_map	1.1
#
#########################################################################
##
##	Front end to the "do_map.awk" nawk program.  Filter all the control-l's
##	out and change them to ".bp"s before nawk is forced to process the 
##	output from st.
##
##
st $* | sed "s/\/.bp/g"  | do_map.awk
@EOF
set `sum $sumopt <do_map`; if test $1 -ne 24862
then
	echo ERROR: do_map checksum is $1 should be 24862
fi
set `wc -lwc <do_map`
if test $1$2$3 != 1249331
then
	echo ERROR: wc results of do_map are $* should be 12 49 331
fi

chmod 544 do_map

echo x - do_map.awk
cat >do_map.awk <<'@EOF'
#!/usr/bin/nawk -f 
########################################################################
##
##	@(#) SRCID: @(#)do_map.awk	1.1
##	@(#)
##	@(#) Author: Peter L. Berghold
##	@(#)	Released to the public domain on 11/16/89
##
##	@(#) do_map.awk  -- Postprocess the output from the program st and 
##	@(#)	           change it into [nte]roff compatible input specs.
##
##
BEGIN{		FirstHeader=1	# State for finding the first header
		Star=2;		# Find the star
		Header=3;	# Next header
		Sys=4;	# Process the star system.
		SStab=5;	# Subsector table
		SSmap=6;	# Subsector map
		Swallow=7;	# Swallow lines.

		ocount=0;	# Orbit object count.
		STATE=FirstHeader
		printf ".nr Ej 1\n"
		printf ".PH \"\'IISS Survey Report\'\'UNCLASS\'\"\n"
		printf ".PF \"\'Information released to public\'[ %% ]"
		printf "\'Under the Freedom of Information Act\'\"\n"
		
		SysCount=0;
		Sysix=0;

	# An array containing the normalized coordinates for a hex map
	# hex vertices.

		hexx[1]=0.866;
		hexy[1]=0;
		hexx[2]=0.433;
		hexy[2]=0.75;
		hexx[3]=-0.433;
		hexy[3]=0.75;
		hexx[4]=-0.866;
		hexy[4]=0;
		hexx[5]=-0.433;
		hexy[5]=-0.75;
		hexx[6]=0.433;
		hexy[6]=-0.75;
}
END {		
	hexmapstrt();
	for(ix=0;ix<SysCount;ix++)
		printf "MapSystem(%d,%d,%s,%s)\n",substr(HEX_ENTRY[ix],1,2),\
					substr(HEX_ENTRY[ix],3,2)\
					,HexName[ix]\
					,HexProfile[ix];
	hexmapend();
	print ".TC"		
}
NF==0 {	
	# ignore blank lines		
		next;
}
STATE==FirstHeader && substr($0,1,3) == ".bp" {
		IssueTBhdr1();
		STATE=Star;	# Find the star...
		next;
}
STATE==Star{
		printf "%s %s-%s\n=\n",$1,$2,$3;
		printf "~Planet~Moon\n*~Orbit~Orbit~Name~Description~Remarks\n";
		printf "=\n";
		STATE=Sys
		ocount=0;
		next;
}
STATE==Sys{
	if (substr($0,1,3) == ".bp")
		if ( substr($0,4,1) == "S" ){
			TBhdr();
			STATE=Star;
		} else {	# Processing for the Subsector Table
			print ".TE"
			## We process the first entry CAREFULLY...
			printf ".H 1 \"Subsector Synopsis Table\"\n"
			printf ".TS\nexpand,doublebox,tab(~);\n"
			printf "cccc\nclll.\n"
			printf "Location~Name~Profile~Remarks\n=\n"
			Loc=substr($1,4,length($1)); # Filter out the ".bp"
			Name=$2
			Pr1=$3
			Pr2=$4
			if (NF  > 4 ) {
				for(ix=5;ix<=NF;ix++) Re[ix-4]=$(ix);
				cn=NF-4;
			} else cn=0;
			SSTabEntry(Loc,Name,Pr1,Pr2,cn,Re);
			STATE=SStab;
		}
	else ProcessBody();
	next;
}
STATE==SStab{
	## 
	if (substr($0,1,3) == ".bp") STATE=SSmap
	else {
		## Process the SStab entry
		Loc=$1
		Name=$2
		Pr1=$3
		Pr2=$4
		if (NF  > 4 ) {
			for(ix=5;ix<=NF;ix++) Re[ix-4]=$(ix);
			cn=NF-4;
		} else cn=0;
		SSTabEntry(Loc,Name,Pr1,Pr2,cn,Re);
	}
}
STATE==SSmap{
	print ".TE"
	##	Process the SSmap entry
	STATE=Swallow;
}
STATE == Swallow {
	## Gobble this line.
}

#
#	Subfunctions to use in processing the text file...
function IssueTBhdr1()
{
	HEX_ENTRY[SysCount]=substr($3,2,4);
	SysCount++;
	printf ".H 1 \"%s\"\n",substr($0,4,length($0));
	StartTB();
	return
}
function TBhdr()
{
	EndTB();
	HEX_ENTRY[SysCount]=substr($3,2,4);
	SysCount++;
	printf ".H 1 \"%s\"\n",substr($0,4,length($0));
	StartTB();
	return
}
function EndTB()
{
	print ".TE";
	return
}
function StartTB()
{
	print ".TS";
	printf "box,expand,tab(~);\ncsssss\nc|c|c|c|c|c\nc|n|n|l|l|l.\n";
	return
}
function ProcessBody()
{
	Porb=substr($0,4,2);
	Morb=substr($0,7,2);
	if (substr($0,5,1) != " " && ocount > 0)  printf "_\n";
	if ( substr($0,2,1) == "*" )
		printf "*~";
	else
		printf "~";
	if (substr($0,11,11) == "EMPTY ORBIT")
	{
		printf "%d~~~EMPTY ORBIT\n",Porb;
	} else 
	{
		ix=10;
		for(iy=10;substr($0,iy,1)!=" ";iy++);
		l=iy-ix;
		OName=substr($0,ix,l);
		ODes_p1=substr($0,27,7);
		ODes_p2=substr($0,36,1);
		Remarks=substr($0,37,length($0));
		if ( substr($0,5,1) == " ") 
			printf "~";
		else 
			printf "%d~",Porb;
		if ( substr($0,8,1) == " ") 
			printf "~";
		else 
			printf "%d~",Morb;

		printf "%s~",OName;
		if ( substr($0,27,5) == "Small" ) 
			printf "Small GG~";
		else
			if ( substr($0,27,5) == "Large" ) 
				printf "Large GG~";
			else
				printf "%s-%s~",ODes_p1,ODes_p2;
		printf "%s\n",Remarks;
	}
	ocount++;
	return
}

function SSTabEntry(L,N,P1,P2,nc,r)
{
	HexName[Sysix]=N;
	if ( P2 == "UNINHABITED" ){
		printf "%s~%s~~UNINHABITED\n",L,N;
		HexProfile[Sysix]="UNINHABITED";
	}else{
		printf "%s~%s~%s-%s~",L,N,P1,P2;
		HexProfile[Sysix]=sprintf("%s-%s",P1,P2);
		if (nc > 0 ) 
			for (ix=1;ix<=nc;ix++) printf "%s ",r[ix];
		printf "\n"
	}

	Sysix++;
	return
}

#
#
#
#	Function to start the definition of the hex map macros and such.
############################################################################
function hexmapstrt()
{
	print ".bp"
	print ".nf"
	print ".PS 5 8 "
	print "xmove=0.866"
	print "ymove=0.5"
	print "define Hex X"
	print "cx=$1"
	print "cy=$2"
	print "hexx1=0.577"
	print "hexy1=0"
	print "hexx2=0.289"
	print "hexy2=0.5"
	print "hexx3=-0.289"
	print "hexy3=0.5"
	print "hexx4=-0.577"
	print "hexy4=7.07e-17"
	print "hexx5=-0.289"
	print "hexy5=-0.5"
	print "hexx6=0.289"
	print "hexy6=-0.5"
	print "move to (cx+hexx1,cy+hexy1)"
	print "line to (cx+hexx6,cy+hexy6)"
	print "line to (cx+hexx5,cy+hexy5)"
	print "line to (cx+hexx4,cy+hexy4)"
	print "line to (cx+hexx3,cy+hexy3)"
	print "line to (cx+hexx2,cy+hexy2)"
	print "line to (cx+hexx1,cy+hexy1)"
	print "\"\\s-2$3$4\\s0\" at (cx,hexy3+cy) below"
	print "X"
	print "define MapSystem X"
	print "    cx= $1 - 1 * xmove "
	print "    if ( $1 % 2 == 0 ) then N"
	print "         cy = 11 - ( ymove + $2 )"
	print "    N else N"
	print "         cy= 11- $2"
	print "    N"
	print "    move to (cx,cy)"
        print "    circlerad= 0.1i"
	print "    circle"
	print "    namey=cy+( ( hexy3 - cy ) / 2.0 )"
	print "    \"\\s-2$3\\s0\" at (cx,namey)"
	print "    profy=cy - ( ( cy - hexy5 ) / 2.0 ) "
	print "    \"\\s-2$4\\s0\" at (cx,profy)"
	print "X"
	print "define CreateMap X"
	print "Hex(0,10,01,01)"
	print "Hex(0,9,01,02)"
	print "Hex(0,8,01,03)"
	print "Hex(0,7,01,04)"
	print "Hex(0,6,01,05)"
	print "Hex(0,5,01,06)"
	print "Hex(0,4,01,07)"
	print "Hex(0,3,01,08)"
	print "Hex(0,2,01,09)"
	print "Hex(0,1,01,10)"
	print "Hex(0.866,9.5,02,01)"
	print "Hex(0.866,8.5,02,02)"
	print "Hex(0.866,7.5,02,03)"
	print "Hex(0.866,6.5,02,04)"
	print "Hex(0.866,5.5,02,05)"
	print "Hex(0.866,4.5,02,06)"
	print "Hex(0.866,3.5,02,07)"
	print "Hex(0.866,2.5,02,08)"
	print "Hex(0.866,1.5,02,09)"
	print "Hex(0.866,0.5,02,10)"
	print "Hex(1.73,10,03,01)"
	print "Hex(1.73,9,03,02)"
	print "Hex(1.73,8,03,03)"
	print "Hex(1.73,7,03,04)"
	print "Hex(1.73,6,03,05)"
	print "Hex(1.73,5,03,06)"
	print "Hex(1.73,4,03,07)"
	print "Hex(1.73,3,03,08)"
	print "Hex(1.73,2,03,09)"
	print "Hex(1.73,1,03,10)"
	print "Hex(2.6,9.5,04,01)"
	print "Hex(2.6,8.5,04,02)"
	print "Hex(2.6,7.5,04,03)"
	print "Hex(2.6,6.5,04,04)"
	print "Hex(2.6,5.5,04,05)"
	print "Hex(2.6,4.5,04,06)"
	print "Hex(2.6,3.5,04,07)"
	print "Hex(2.6,2.5,04,08)"
	print "Hex(2.6,1.5,04,09)"
	print "Hex(2.6,0.5,04,10)"
	print "Hex(3.46,10,05,01)"
	print "Hex(3.46,9,05,02)"
	print "Hex(3.46,8,05,03)"
	print "Hex(3.46,7,05,04)"
	print "Hex(3.46,6,05,05)"
	print "Hex(3.46,5,05,06)"
	print "Hex(3.46,4,05,07)"
	print "Hex(3.46,3,05,08)"
	print "Hex(3.46,2,05,09)"
	print "Hex(3.46,1,05,10)"
	print "Hex(4.33,9.5,06,01)"
	print "Hex(4.33,8.5,06,02)"
	print "Hex(4.33,7.5,06,03)"
	print "Hex(4.33,6.5,06,04)"
	print "Hex(4.33,5.5,06,05)"
	print "Hex(4.33,4.5,06,06)"
	print "Hex(4.33,3.5,06,07)"
	print "Hex(4.33,2.5,06,08)"
	print "Hex(4.33,1.5,06,09)"
	print "Hex(4.33,0.5,06,10)"
	print "Hex(5.2,10,07,01)"
	print "Hex(5.2,9,07,02)"
	print "Hex(5.2,8,07,03)"
	print "Hex(5.2,7,07,04)"
	print "Hex(5.2,6,07,05)"
	print "Hex(5.2,5,07,06)"
	print "Hex(5.2,4,07,07)"
	print "Hex(5.2,3,07,08)"
	print "Hex(5.2,2,07,09)"
	print "Hex(5.2,1,07,10)"
	print "Hex(6.06,9.5,08,01)"
	print "Hex(6.06,8.5,08,02)"
	print "Hex(6.06,7.5,08,03)"
	print "Hex(6.06,6.5,08,04)"
	print "Hex(6.06,5.5,08,05)"
	print "Hex(6.06,4.5,08,06)"
	print "Hex(6.06,3.5,08,07)"
	print "Hex(6.06,2.5,08,08)"
	print "Hex(6.06,1.5,08,09)"
	print "Hex(6.06,0.5,08,10)"
	print "X"
	print "CreateMap()"
}

function hexmapend()
{
	print ".PE"
	printf ".FG \"Subsector Map\"\n";
	printf ".fi\n"
}
@EOF
set `sum $sumopt <do_map.awk`; if test $1 -ne 774
then
	echo ERROR: do_map.awk checksum is $1 should be 774
fi
set `wc -lwc <do_map.awk`
if test $1$2$3 != 3588778146
then
	echo ERROR: wc results of do_map.awk are $* should be 358 877 8146
fi

chmod 544 do_map.awk

exit 0



-------- TML Message #720 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 720
Date: Thu, 16 Nov 89 12:55:51 PST
From: gazis@halley.arc.nasa.gov
Subject: Women, androids, mystery, and how to deal with them




WOMEN, ANDROIDS, AND MYSTERY
Another wierd posting by Cap'n Paul


WOMEN
     Doesn't EVERYONE have female players and PC's running in their
games?  One of the best goups of players I can remember was the All
Girl Mount Holyoke Paranoia Campaign.  Not a single PC ever made it
it out of the briefing room.

ANDROIDS
     There are no androids in The Eight Worlds (as far as anyone
knows).  There are, however, robots.  Which robots are not terribly
intelligent.  It is an ancient piece of EW lore that self-awareness
is a simple programming trick which only takes about 32K of code,
while real intelligence, capable of abstract reasoning, common sense,
passing the Turing test, and all that stuff takes Truly Massive Amounts 
of computing power.
     As a result, all robots, be they simple tour guides or ancient
and powerful autonomous war machines left over from imperial days,
must be handled with care.  They have a tendancy to interpret commands
and data in an excessively literal fashion.  They have, in fact, a
tendancy to leap to conclusions.  Some models of robot have what can
only be described as personality flaws as well.  Such as the 
autonomous mining complex whose components had what to my mind was
a whimsical tendancy towards religious fanaticism.

MYSTERY
     It is easy to create mysteries for your players.  It is trivial.
It is the Very Simplest Thing In The Whole World.  Simply DON'T TELL
THEM ANYTHING.  DON'T TELL THEM ANYTHING AT ALL.  Rather than say,
"Two Pastagorian Death Commandos (PDCs) open fire from the third green
balcony on the left with their Canon SureShot short blasters!" say
"You see the flash of a laser bolt.  Morris Minor takes 32 points
of damage to his STR."  After the PDCs get shmeared, don't say,
"They were obviously sent by the Evil Prince Cormac."  instead say,
"You don't find any trace of identification, except for a claim check
for Carl's Dry Clean on Rastabad."
     The beauty of the Don't Tell Them Anything Approach (hereafter
referred to as DTTAA) is that it allows the GM to appear subtle and
clever without any effort.  In short, you can create great mysteries
by simply being lazy.

THE DTTAA AT WORK
     Consider the following example:
     The PC's land their corvette, the 'ANDROSCOGGIN', at Rastabad 
spaceport.  On board is a valuable cargo of mirpins which they have 
been hired to carry to Bounders to relieve the mirpin shortage there.  
The Evil Prince Cormac (EPC) wants to stop this cargo from arriving 
because... well...  he's Evil.
     An energetic GM would now spend several hours creating the EPC's
army of minions.  Right down to the last min.  Which minions the PCs
would then blow away.  Down to the last min.  How dull.
     An even more energetic GM would Try To Create A Mystery.  He 
would devise a complex scenario, laden with trails and clues, which
the PCs would cleverly ignore in their rush to blow away the EPCs 
minions.  PCs are like that.  Impetuous fellows every one.
     A lazy GM applies DTTAA.  He does not bother to create any
minions.  He does not bother to plant a single clues.  He is, in fact,
completely unprepared.  In desperation, he throws two hapless PDCs at
the PCs.  To buy time, he furnishes one of the PDCs with a laundry
ticket.  This is surely plausible.  Even Pastagorian Death Commandos 
need to get their shirts cleaned.  ESPECIALLY Pastagorian Death 
Commandos.  Tomato sauce leaves such terrible stains.  It is the GM's 
fervent hope that the PLAYERS will generate some sort of mystery.  On
their own!  Players are, after all, quite good at this sort of thing.  
It is what they are for.  If left to their own devices, players can be 
relied upon to create such a terrible tangled mess that soon even the 
GM will lose track of what is happening.
     The players do not hunt down the EPC.  No, this is much too
obvious.  They conclude that the attack is the work of the New
Chinese Fleet.  The laundry ticket is a obviously a clue.  Everyone
KNOWS that the New Chinese control every dry-cleaning establishment 
from here to Boruski.  The New Chinese must be seeking to protect 
their mirpin monoploy.  The PCs break into the New Chinese Embassy.
     The Ambassadorian Cleaning Staff repells the attack with 
contemptuous ease, after which the New Chinese attempt to determine
the identity of their attackers.  The PCs have left no clues.  So
the GM consults his notes to discover that New China is currently at 
odds with the Sandulak Corporation.  Ah ha!  The plot thickens! 
Three New Chinese agents attempt to infiltrate the Sandulak Regional 
Headquarters.
     In no time at all, the NPCs are bustling about in a furor,
spying on each other, shooting each other, and conducting local
school board elections.  The PCs still have no idea what is going 
on.  Because:
     First, nothing IS going on.  There are NO grandiose plots and
conspiracies.  The NPCs have been stirred into frantic life by the 
PCs inept bumblings and are running around essentially at random.
     Second, the GM is lazy and DOESN'T TELL THE PLAYERS ANYTHING AT 
ALL!  He does not say, "Well, today three Escargian Fetishists fell
seized a Sandulak cargo shuttle and crashed it into the Central
Repository."  he says, "You hear a distant explosion.  It is
doubtless a matter of small consequence."  If prompted the GM will
admit that yes, the landing pad next to the ANDROSCOGGIN is now 
empty.  And the PCs will receive a small surprise should they ever
decide to take a Central Repository Tour.
     At last, the players are forced to conclude that they are
lost.  They have stumbled into an incredible mystery, a conspiracy
of gargantuan proportions.  They are forced to conclude that their 
GM is a genius.  They show their admiration by fixing the GM up 
with dates.

Paul What Does The R. Stand For? Gazis                        
gazis@hal.arc.nasa.gov   or
gazis%hal.span@ames.arc.nasa.gov   or
something like that





-------- TML Message #721 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 721
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 89 09:21:51 EST
From: (Greg Givler - QA) givler@cbmvax.commodore.COM
Subject: Re:  "Jokes and women"? I wouldn't have phrased it QUITE that way.



>For those who've never run with women, I recommend the experience strongly. 
>My one regret about my current TRAVELLER party, which is 100% mature, smart, 
>and skilled, is that it's also 100% male. Some of our lady friends, who are by
>and large excellent gamers themselves but who don't feel the need to game on a
>weekly basis, have elected to form a "Traveller Widows' Club" and get together
>and socialize, ELSEWHERE, while we game. Oh, well. *sigh*

My wife and I have rolled played with my wife on numerous occasion. My favorite
time being in TRAVELLER, where she was playing an Old money Countess and I was
an upstart nouveau-riche Knight. We did not get along and our bickering 
delighted the GM that was running us. 

Also I have run with women on many occasions and it has been a much more 
enjoyable experience. I was playing the Vargr in the Traveller adventure 
and the GM's wife was playing a well to do woman in the party and she in
real life is an Animal rights proponent, it was amazing the way the to of
us got along. I thought that we may have had a very "interesting" love story
but unfortunately the campaign broke up, so we never did get to find out
where that relationship would have ended up. 

If you have never roleplayed with women in the party try it sometime you will
like it.

Greg

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Givler                        Q-Link: GregGivler
QA Analyst                         CompuServe: Greg Givler 76702,647
Commodore QA (Software)            GEnie: G.Givler
215-431-9100                       INTERNET: givler@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Wild Whores couldn't keep me away!" -- George Fransisco
"That's Horses, George" -- Sikes -- Alien Nation --  Fox Broadcasting --
===============================================================================




-------- TML Message #722 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 722
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 89 14:28:11 EST
From: ("William B. Morrison") morrison@pyr.gatech.edu


Date: Fri, 17 Nov 89 10:25:29 EST
From: Bill Morrison (Coordinator) <morrison@pyr.gatech.edu>
Reply-To: Traveller System Generation Group@pyr.gatech.edu
Subject: Traveller System Generation Group Digest V1 #3
To: traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com


Traveller System Generation Fri, 17 Nov 89       Volume 1 : Issue   3 

Today's Topics:
                            Administratia
         Another (should be) hot topic: data formats (3 msgs)
                           Background? Me??
                           Background Info
                             Black Holes
                          Compilers (2 msgs)
         Discussion group membership and programming workload
                            Here it is...
                            Here we go.,..
            Information to make available (maybe in maps)
                             More ideas.
                      Planet generators (2 msgs)
                      Representation of Spheres
                             Star Systems
                            traveller maps
                  TRAVELLER Star System Data Formats
                Traveller Star System Generation Group
                      Where to send the surveys


***************************************************************************
** STAR SYSTEM DIGEST: star system generation, storage, and display.     **
** All followups on this topic should be sent to morrison@pyr.gatech.edu **
** They will be edited for clarity and resent to the Traveller Mailing.  **
***************************************************************************

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 6 Nov 89 09:21:21 EST
From: morrison%pyr@gatech.edu (William B. Morrison)
Subject: Administratia
To: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu, burdick@hpindl1.hp.com, dan@engrg.uwo.ca,

First, Dan Corrin and I have come up with a questionnaire that we would
like everyone to fill out and return to Dan. This questionnaire is
intended to get a sampling of the various randes of expertise in
the discussion group, and to get a gist of what everyone would like
to see in the first build of our system, intermediate builds,
and the finished product. We would appreciate you getting it back to 
Dan <dan@engrg.uwo.ca> at your earliest convenience.

- --Bill

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 89 09:13:56 EST
From: morrison%pyr@gatech.edu (William B. Morrison)
Subject: Another (should be) hot topic: data formats
To: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu, burdick@hpindl1.hp.com, dan@engrg.uwo.ca,

Here's something that we've hinted at but haven't discussed: how are
we going to store input, transient, and output data? Now I know that
according to standard software engineering techniques we don't need to
define this for a while yet, it could influence our design if we specify
all data to be stored in ASCII format, for example.

I think that it should be required that we store all data in ASCII format. 
This will allow the referee generating the systems to massage the data
in any way deemed necessary to get the desired results. They just pull
the data file into their favorite editor and in a few minutes, they are
ready to go. However, this dramatically increases the amount of data
validation we must do since we can't guarantee data integrity anymore.

For my information, what data formats have been used to store data
in existing programs? I would guess that most programs would use
binary (flags, numbers, enumerated types, etc) and records. Both of
which would be hard to edit with a debugger and just about
impossible with anything else. I would also hazard a guess that a
majority of our end users will use this/these programs on PCs,
Macs, etc.

Now for the standard questions: what do you think? What is a better
way of doing it that will still allow users to edit data files by
hand? Do we even *want* users to edit [transient] data files?

By 'transient' I mean both data files that exist only during the
operation of the system *and* those data files used between
modules (eg. output from one module is used as input to another).

- --Bill

PS- I thought of a 'edit data files' program, but we don't know all
    of the data files we'll need yet, and ASCII data files nicely
    side-steps the problem of having a potentially huge and
    intelligent data file editor.

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 89 10:12:34 EST
From: Dan Corrin <dan@engrg.uwo.ca>
Subject: Another (should be) hot topic: data formats
To: JEDI@drycas.club.cc.cmu.edu, METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu,

<Bill>
> Here's something that we've hinted at but haven't discussed: how are
> we going to store input, transient, and output data? ...

There are really only two choices I can think of, ASCII and binary. There
are advantages and disadvantages to each.
ASCII is easy to read, store, and can be modified easily.
it is also bulky, and data verification code will have to be added to 
each module.
Binary is compact, has better data integrity, and requires less code.
it is difficult to change (ie. requires a special editor), highly
susceptible to data damage, and difficult to read.

The real trade off is space vs. difficulty to access. ASCII takes more
space (both code and data storage), and binary is difficult to use.

> 
> Now for the standard questions: what do you think? What is a better
> way of doing it that will still allow users to edit data files by
> hand? Do we even *want* users to edit [transient] data files?
> 
> By 'transient' I mean both data files that exist only during the
> operation of the system *and* those data files used between
> modules (eg. output from one module is used as input to another).
> 

I believe that data files used between modules (which we haven't actually
decided on using), should be the same format as the input and output files,
as that is essentially what they are. The temporary files (if any), should
be left up to the programmer, I can't think of any reason (at this time),
why people would need access to them, come to think of it I can't think of
any reason to use them at all.

	That's my opinion.
			-Dan

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 89 9:46:55 EST
From: 45252-Peter L. Berghold <hplabs!allegra!violin!plb@gatech.edu>
Subject: Another (should be) hot topic: data formats
To: allegra!pyr.gatech.edu!morrison  (Traveller Programmer's Sig)

>> 
>> I think that it should be required that we store all data in ASCII format. 
>> This will allow the referee generating the systems to massage the data
>> in any way deemed necessary to get the desired results. They just pull
>> the data file into their favorite editor and in a few minutes, they are
>> ready to go. However, this dramatically increases the amount of data
>> validation we must do since we can't guarantee data integrity anymore.
>> 
ARRRRRGHHHH!!!!!

>> For my information, what data formats have been used to store data
>> in existing programs? I would guess that most programs would use
>> binary (flags, numbers, enumerated types, etc) and records. Both of
>> which would be hard to edit with a debugger and just about
>> impossible with anything else. I would also hazard a guess that a
>> majority of our end users will use this/these programs on PCs,
>> Macs, etc.
>> 
I would be more in favor of this type of methodology PROVIDED THAT THE 
DATA TYPES AND STRUCTURES ARE THOROUGHLY DOCUMENTED.  Also, great care 
must be taken to ensure backward compatibility in the event that future 
revs cause these structures to change.  (Some type of header info that 
tells which rev the records were written with.)

>> Now for the standard questions: what do you think? What is a better
>> way of doing it that will still allow users to edit data files by
>> hand? Do we even *want* users to edit [transient] data files?
>> 
>> By 'transient' I mean both data files that exist only during the
>> operation of the system *and* those data files used between
>> modules (eg. output from one module is used as input to another).
>> 
>> PS- I thought of a 'edit data files' program, but we don't know all
>>     of the data files we'll need yet, and ASCII data files nicely
>>     side-steps the problem of having a potentially huge and
>>     intelligent data file editor.
>> 

A data files editor doesn't need to be huge.   In fact if modularity is 
maintained, the editor could be built up from the same routines that 
write and read the data from the "main" programs.

Pete

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 89 9:15:14 EDT
From: 45252-Peter L. Berghold <hplabs!allegra!violin!plb@gatech.edu>
Subject: Background? Me??
To: allegra!pyr.gatech.edu!morrison  (Traveller Programmer's Sig)

My turn.   As my .signature shows I am a System Administrator for AT&T.  Unlike
some of you other folks, I don't hold any degrees.   I learned my programming
from the school of hard knocks.   I have been involved in computers and 
computer programming in one fashion or another for about 18 years.  I can 
program in C, C++, and a bunch of languages I won't admit to :-) .  I am also
familiar with YACC, LEX, AWK, and all those other funny sounding animals.

Pete

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 89 12:32:51 EST
From: 45252-Peter L. Berghold <hplabs!allegra!violin!plb@gatech.edu>
Subject: Background Info
To: allegra!pyr.gatech.edu!morrison  (Traveller Programmer's Sig)

>> All of this hierarchical universe-building sounds an awful lot like the
>> Universe Simulation Mailing List (usml-request@hc.dspo.gov).  For those
>> of you with internet access, try ftp'ing to hc.dspo.gov (192.12.184.4)
>> to check out the usml archives there.
>> 
OK so I did.   I boy am I glad!   Hey Gang!  There is gold in them 
thar' hills!

I have in my possesion now a copy of a document written by a "Stan Shebs" 
that outlines some salient points that we should consider.   I took the 
time to convert this document from whatever-in-the-sam-hill format it was 
in into [ent]roff format.  The title of this document is "Simulating the 
Universe" and when formatted on my machine turned out to be 11 pages long.
It makes good reading.   

If anybody is interested in getting a copy of my "hacked" version, give 
me a good UUCP path and I will send it to you.

Other goodies I got from there include a program that uses rules rather 
different than Traveller's rules to generate star systems.   Some of its 
feature sets might be useable for this project tho'.  Planetary resources 
are figured out, as well as surface temps, seasonal effects from axial 
tilt, and a lot of other details.

I haven't finished evaluating all of the goodies that I glommed from 
there, but I think that these should not be overlooked.

Pete

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 89 10:59:13 EDT
From: dan@engrg.uwo.ca
Subject: Black Holes
To: traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com

In response to metlay:

Oops...Yes I had forgotten about the light-bending properties of blackholes,
and with a spaceship that can move over a wide area, it is quite probable
that they would be detected fairly easily.

> ... The problem with the
> current star system generation tables is that if they reflected the true
> population distribution of stars in the primary galactic medium, they'd 
> bore the average gamer to tears, because on a 3D6 table you'd need to roll
> a 3 or an 18 to get anything other than a red dwarf ... it's unreasonable
> to ask Traveller for a "more realistic" star system population 
> distribution

Yes I agree, however I was not discussing changing the star generation
process (which I would have left on the star generation list), rather coming
up with a reason for the generation as listed. I did want a sub table to
generate other stellar phenomanon used perhaps once or twice per sector.
The rules (scouts) even mention adding supergiants in at a very low density
(1 per sector or so).

My main points are/were:
1) Stars not represented correctly (2D, too many non-dwarf, no black holes.)
a) Assume all stars are projected into a plane. to get 2D board
b) a large number of stars are not mapped (usualy dwarfs) because of no
bodies in the system for bases/fuel.
c) Resultant stars provide density and composition we get from the star
generation tables. (I have a good reason for 2D as well which I haven't
brought up).
d) Add in other interesting stellar objects at a rate of a few per sector
(I like a lot of black holes myself...but see first paragraph).
e) this results in no changes to the maps (execpt where you want to mark
other stellar objects), nor to any rules, it is just a method of
perceiving the traveller universe so that it approximates ours more closely
(after all we have already assumed a 2D universe)

2) Obervation techniques don't seem to match today's standards.
a) Correct me if I'm wrong as I havn't dug up my Zhodani alien module, but
I believe that in the core exploration rules, you only get to see an
area 2-3 parsecs ahead of you. 
b) if you subscribe to (1) above, identifying good stars may that difficult.
c) if not, (I was probably exaggerating when I said we could see the entire
imperium from one location.) but even the near star map at 50 ly radius
represents a circle with a 30 parsec diameter, which is approximately a
sector (24x40 parsecs). That is with tech 8 ground based telescopes, a 
good TL 15 scout in space with no light noise sould get at least 4 sectors. 
(double range) 
d) additionaly as an jump-capable observer can more easily calulate 
positions by virtue of being able to observe from different points (from 
Leonard)

	-Dan
	

- ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 89 09:09:00 EST
From: morrison@pyr.gatech.edu (William B. Morrison)
Subject: Compilers
To: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu, burdick@hpindl1.hp.com, dan@engrg.uwo.ca,

The survey results aren't in yet, but I can bet you almost
anything (almost ;-) that we will be using a "standard" C
compiler rather than C++ -- and that's looking at it from an
availability aspect (eg. I don't have one).

As a side note, does anyone have any problems trying to write
to the ANSI standard of C? Just trying to be upwardly
compatible...

- --Bill

- ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 15 Nov 89 10:32:57 EST
From: Dan Corrin <dan@engrg.uwo.ca>
Subject: Compilers
To: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu, burdick@hpindl1.hp.com, dan@engrg.uwo.ca,

on  Wed, 15 Nov 89 09  morrison@pyr.gatech.edu (William B. Morrison) said:
> The survey results aren't in yet, but I can bet you almost
> anything (almost ;-) that we will be using a "standard" C
> compiler rather than C++ -- and that's looking at it from an
> availability aspect (eg. I don't have one).
>
Well I've spent two hours so far, and I am half-way done...
It should be ready by Friday, due to popular demand I waited until
2/3 were in, and I didn't get anything done on the weekend.
>
> As a side note, does anyone have any problems trying to write
> to the ANSI standard of C? Just trying to be upwardly
> compatible...
> 

ANSI C: Pascal for the 90's.
(Actually I heard that from one of my collegues here...:-)
I don't know the ANSI C standards, and if we use them, it will have
to be made available to everyone.
	-Dan

- ------------------------------

Date: Thu, 19 Oct 89 11:21:42 EDT
From: 45252-Peter L. Berghold <hplabs!allegra!violin!violin!plb@gatech.edu>
Subject: Discussion group membership and programming workload
To: allegra!pyr.gatech.edu!morrison (Traveller Programmer's Sig)

>> Currently, the discussion group has a membership of 12 people,
>> not all of whom are Computer Science/programmer types (not at      
>> least from what I understand). First we need to determine how       
>> many people in the group have programming skills (software
>> engineering, structured design, etc) -- just to get things
>> going. Then we can approach this in several ways:

One rabid C programmer here!  :-)    Let's start writing some code! 

>>    1) Pick one of the programmers as lead (perhaps a co-lead also),
	[stuff deleted]
>> 
I think one person should write the high level programming spec, filter it 
down to other folks that spec out individual module SETS and then the 
programmer types can have a field day from there.

Pete

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 3 Nov 89 16:24:56 EST
From: Dan Corrin <dan@engrg.uwo.ca>
Subject: Here it is...
To: morrison@engrg.uwo.ca

Just a few minor changes (and adding relion question, I find that
some people are touchy about religion in games).
Is there a reason why the industrialization index was not carried over? It
doesn't really matter, as I think it is a bit to picky of a detail. However
I just thought of another statistic that our governemnts use: %urban pop.
This can actually be calculated from the city generation sequence in
WBH, but might me interesting as a quick statistic.
(There are also other fun statistics that are used today such as infant
mortality, literacy rate, etc. These, though are kinda much.).

I will let you send it out, I will compare the answers and post the results
to the list (generation). If we get any new members, perhaps you could send
the questionaire out as part of the introductory message.

Do you know that a range of 1-10, being even has no middle or "average" 
answer? (which is one reason why I chose -5 to 5, which has problems too).

The time in the where to respond is flexible, but if not given, the results
may not arrive quickly enough. When should the posting to the list be made
(in order to get the late people). I will forward a copy of all the
filled out questionaires to you.

		-Dan

P.S. You did an excellent job of converting simple statements to nice
understanable sentances.

- ----- Begin Included Message -----

This questionaire may reflect the biasess of the writers, feel free to
enter your own comments.

   Please fill out all parts of the questionaire, and return to:
   		dan@engrg.uwo.ca
   by Friday November 10th. The results will be compiled, and posted back 
   to the list. If you feel you don't quite understand a question, answer 
   it anyway, and add a comment clairifying what you understand that the 
   question is asking. Remember that comments suggestions, and additions 
   are welcome.


GENERAL INFORMATION
- -------------------

Name:__________________________     E-Mail address:________________________

What machine(s) and OS(s) are available to you?:


Do you hace access to a PostScript printer?

Do you have a C compiler? If yes, specify:______________________

A C++ compiler? If yes, specify:________________________________

Years and type of C Programming Experience:

Do you have experience writing code to generate PostScript?

Do you wish to contribute as a programmer, tester, or as technical
consultant?

If you would like to program, would you be interested in being lead
or co-lead programmer (you would be responsible for coming up with
the preliminary design)?

Do you think we should use a co-ordinated programming effort using
software engineering techniques, or should we proceed in an ad hoc
manner with everyone contributing as they have time?

Do you possess knowledge in the following areas, and to what degree?

Astronomy/Astrophysics        -
Geology                       -
Archeology                    -
History/Political Science     -
Demographics                  -
Biology                       -
Fractals/graphics generation  -

Are there any other general areas of knowledge that you have that you
feel should be considered in generating star/planetary systems (at any 
level of detail) for Traveller/MegaTraveller?


General Implementation Considerations
- -------------------------------------

  System Considerations - This is to provide a general direction for deisgn.
  ---------------------
  If Build 1 is one program that generates strict Traveller/MegaTraveller
  systems, what do you envision Build 2 as being (eg. more functions
  to build 1, a planetary information generator taking input from
  the build 1 program, a trade/X-boat route generator taking input
  from build 1, etc)?

  How should we represent the (as yet unkown) data types?
  [Binary/Record | ASCII] [Single File | Multiple Files]

  Should our production system be one program or a series of programs?
  If a series of programs, how should we break them up (physical, political,
  scale [sector, subsector, system, planet], other)?

  What co-ordinate system should we use for sector numbering?
  [Reference|Galaxy Centre|Other]

  Should we include some data items used by other gaming systems
  (E.g. Galactic Conquest, Exploting Space, Other Suns, and Space Opera)?
  
  Should we include religion generation (for example from the world builders 
  handbook), as this may be offensive to some?


  Capabilities Considerations
  ---------------------------
  The following is a list of capabilities that may eventually be included
  in the final build of our system. On a scale of 1 to 10 (1=soon,
  10=later), please indicate at what stage a certain feature should
  be included into our system. A "1" generally means 'to be included in
  build 1, and a "10" means 'to be included in the last build before
  production - if at all'. Remember to add your own write-ins.

   Map Types                
   ---------               
   Empire maps               :
   Sector maps               :
   Subsector maps            :
   Solar System maps         :
   Planetary maps            :
   Regional (planetary) maps :
   City maps                 :
   Display in '3-D'          :
                                
   Info to be displayed on maps
   ----------------------------
   Number of planets in system :
   Planet Types/Symbols        :
      (exotic atmos, planet interdicted, stellar type, etc)
   Black Holes                 :
   Neutron Stars               :
   Brown Dwarfs                :
   Other stellar phenomenon    :

   Trade routes             :
   X-Boat routes            :
   Jump lanes               :
   Military/Scout Bases     :
   Government Type          :
   Law level                :
   Tech level               :
   Imperial Sancuaries, etc :

   Library Information
   -------------------
   Number of different *native* lifeforms : 
   Xenophobic reaction of population      :
   Major industries                       :
   Major Corporations                     :
   Exports                                :
   Imports                                :
   Trade duties and taxes                 :
   Restricted goods                       :
   Population density                     :
      (just because it's planet size A and
       population 4 doesn't mean it's not
       crowded).

  Government/Population Information
  ---------------------------------
  Bureaucracy level     :     (how much the government likes to hassle you)
  Loyalty of population :     (to government)
  Crime rate            :
  Punishment level      :     (do they execute you? for jay-walking?)
  Military Status       :     (at war, pacifistic, etc)
  Repression Index      :     (censorship, unjustified arrests, etc)
  Corruption Index      :     (corruption of government)
  Government Stability  :     (is the same government likely to be in
                                power as when we first arrived)
  Average Income        :
  Current Political/Important Persons:

  Other Information
  -----------------
  Background radiation level : 
  Meteor Infall              :


First Build Considerations
- --------------------------

These are general items/capabilities that we may want to consider for the
first (primitive) build of our generation system. Please feel free to add
items at your descretion. If you feel an item should be left for a later
build, please indicate with "LATER". Also, feel free to elaborate on any
item you believe needs more attention.

   System Considerations
   ----------------------------
   Should the first build be one program generating strict (only
   information currently in Traveller/MT/World Builder) systems (This
   would be the frame around which everything else is built)?

   Should we generate our system from scratch or should we use the
   "real" system generator or James Perkins' system generator as a
   *framework* around which to build our system (This means re-writing
   some of the code in those systems to conform to our deign)?

   If we use either of these systems, should their capabilities by
   included in build 1 or in subsequent builds?

   Should the first build be one program unto itself, or should we
   begin with our 'series of program' from the start?
   
   How much control over the random generation do we want the user to
   have (UPP(system) level, stellar level, planet level, or more)?


   Compatibility Considerations
   ----------------------------
   Please indicate if you feel that we should seperate output for each
   "compatibility level", exclusively target one system, or whatever.

   Traveller Compatible:
   MegaTraveller Compatible:
   World Builders Handbook Compatible:
   Other generation system(s):

- ----- End Included Message -----

- ------------------------------

Date: Mon, 23 Oct 89 13:41 EDT
From: (null)
Subject: Here we go.,..
To: morrison%pyr@gatech.edu

    As to the version of Traveller I play, I own MegaTraveller, but have
    played clasical and Mega.  Right now, I'm mainly interested in
    MegaTraveller, and have a friend who also plays, but has no net access
    at this point.  I haven't been very active due to other games I am
    concentrating on, but I am interested.

    I think we should go for at least sector and subsector maps probably
    solarsystem and planetary info.  As to planetary maps and city maps, it
    is something that should be open to talk, but not a main thrust.  It
    would take up too much time.  I cannot really comment on any more,
    because I haven't really done much in Traveller, nor have I had a
    chance to look at the programs.  LaTeR.

    							Gary Schreiber

- ------------------------------

Date: Mon Nov 13 16:12:47 1989
From: richard@agora.hf.intel.com (Richard Johnson)
Subject: Information to make available (maybe in maps)
To: morrison@agora.hf.intel.com

I'm mailing a copy of this to both dan@engrg.uwo.com and
morrison@pyr.gatech.edu, so you'll both know what's happening.

After filling out the questionaire Friday, I went out to
my favorite spot, the airport (I'm a student pilot).  While
there, I picked up a little (it really is little, but thick)
book, called the "Flight Guide".

This book is organized by states (U.S. states), and for each
state it contains a sketch of *every* airport (well every one
anyone but a crazy bush pilot would want to land at) and information
about that airport.

The information includes: distance and direction to town, length of
runway(s), width of runway(s), type of surface, fuel available, 
services, latitude, longitude, field elevation, known non-obvious
hazards, a telephone number to call, and so forth.

It occured to me that this type of book would be essential to any
shuttle or starship pilot.  

Do we want to consider something along these lines?  If so, I can provide
more information.  (I don't limit the concept to just starports,
I envision the concept could apply equally well to a larger-scale
concept like a subsector - less detailed).

Thanks for listening.
Richard Johnson
richard@agora.hf.intel.com

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 20 Oct 89 9:31:38 EDT
From: 45252-Peter L. Berghold <hplabs!allegra!violin!plb@gatech.edu>
Subject: More ideas.
To: allegra!pyr.gatech.edu!morrison  (Traveller Programmer's Sig)

Just a thought here:

The two programs that I have already for star system generation give their 
output in the form of either strictly ASCII flat files or POSTSCRIPT files.
Another option we might want to consider would be [txe]roff files.  Hex 
maps could easily be generated by PIC formatter input files, and as well you 
would be able to merge the textual information about a subsector with the 
graphics.   I have already been experimenting along those lines very 
successfully, and it wouldn't be too hard to do.

Pete

- ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Nov 89 11:10:06 PST
From: Scott Ellsworth <sellswor@jarthur.claremont.edu>
Subject: Planet generators
To: morrison%pyr@gatech.edu

feel free to repost.  I would have sent it to the list, but I lost the 
address.  (Actually, I lost the machine that had the address on it... 
long story.) I would also be very inyterested in joining the star system 
generation group.  It is one of my two vices in traveller.  The other is 
automated ship generation programs that do deck plans.  That one I have 
not yet figured out a good way to deal with, but I will hack away till 
eventually...

  Scott
  Sellsworth@hmcvax
  sellswor@jarthur.claremont.edu

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue, 31 Oct 89 1:50:31 PST
From: Scott Ellsworth <sellswor@jarthur.claremont.edu>
Subject: Planet generators
To: morrison@jarthur.claremont.edu

Hello.  I heard a rumor that we now have a reliable way to get to your host.
The excitement of it all...

First off, I have a few opinions on what a good generator system should do:
I think we should stick to the MT/WBH format whenever and wherever possible.
This would maximize the number of people who can use the final product.

  I would not mind a series of three programs:

Sector or Subsector level - shoudl produce output comparable to one of 
the MT sector maps.  If we can come up with an easy 3D fix, I certainly 
would not mind it, as long as it is reasonably easy to implement.  By 
this, I mean that I should be able to alter all of the relevant portions 
of the rules and explain them to my players in under ten minutes if they 
are familiar with MT.  I should also be able to use a standard MT map with 
a little pre-game re-ordering.

  A possible way to do this would be to assign tenth or fifth 
parsec height numbers and make them an optional pre or postfix part of the 
system hex number.  Example: hex 0203 is jump one away from hex 0204; hex 
010101 is one jump away from 110101.  If a tenth is unreasonable, then 
perhaps a half or whole hex.  Merely making the average distance stay the
same does not account for the fact that one has access to another dimension
and thus one may have more or fewer worlds that form a contigous trade route.
The beauty of the pre/postfix on the hex number is that it can be freely
ignored if needed.  I would expect that this program keeps track of worlds
by hex number, with or without extensions.

  This program should be able to work from information already generated if 
the need arises.  It might behoove us to type in a copy a significant chunk 
of the spinward marches just so we can insure that our program's output looks
like the reference standard.

  System level - Should be able to produce a World Builder's handbook type 
of description of any system needed.  It gives each world in a system a
number, perhaps by orbit number and sattelite number, while remembering
that overall system by the same hex number we just finished taliking about
above.  We should really get decent system maps with some kind of reasonable
(log ?) scale lurking about in them.  This too should be able to work 
from a upp or some other input data.

  Planetary level - I often need this one.  A combination of reality and the
world builder stuff would be nice here.  I never have enough maps of planets 
hand, so this would be very handy.  It should probably use the sector hex
number along with the system orbit and sattelite orbit number to keep track
of where everything is.  One should be able to feed in a upp for system
and planet and get a reasonable map out that takes into account all of the
data in its map.  This one needs some flags in it that allow the user
to ask for certain parameters to be altered, like tectonic activity,
desired trade paramters, population density (clumped or distributed), and
other such.

  This is what I find that I would use, and would very much like to have.

The generation programs should be able to print out any given piece of this
data (like a subsectors worth at any given moment) as needed.

  By the way, I work on Apple //gses and Macs for the most part, though I
test-copile everything on out Sequent to make sure it works before I go
through the aches and pains of porting all of this to my computers.
For example, while the gensys programs have worked, the program that was to 
generate realistic planets has not yet our system, mostly because the links
to our site clipped everything faithfully at 80 characters.

  Background:
BS physics, working on a Masters in Applied Math.  Prgrammed in basic for
8 years, Pascal for 6, C for 1.  I have worked VMS, Unix, Macs and GSes.
I tend to be very good at finding bugs, not nearly as good at fixing them.
If you all are working on a project, I will be happy to give an opinon as a
dedicated rules fiend, but I don't know how much time I can devote to 
programming yet.

  Scott Ellsworth
  sellswor@jarthur.claremont.edu
  SELLSWORTH@HMCVAX

- ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Nov 89 15:56:22 GMT
From: jaymin@maths.tcd.ie
Subject: Representation of Spheres
To: traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com

    Most of you seem to be discussing things over my head. Literially.
I am not so much concerned with generating huge number of stars but things
of planet sized and lower.
    The reccomended grid for worlds looks something like this:

               /\    /\    /\    /\    /\
              /  \  /  \  /  \  /  \  /  \      I.e. a 20 sided dice.
             /____\/____\/____\/____\/____\
            /\    /\    /\    /\    /\    /
           /  \  /  \  /  \  /  \  /  \  /
          /____\/____\/____\/____\/____\/
          \    /\    /\    /\    /\    /
           \  /  \  /  \  /  \  /  \  /
            \/    \/    \/    \/    \/

    You put hexes down the sides (one for each size of the world gives
you a constant scale) and pentegrams on the corners. This is really peachy
and plesant but has several drawbacks if you want to try to implement this
on a computer (If you don't trust me, I leave it as an exercise).
    Firstly I will outline what is needed for a computer representation:
    1) There must be a simple way to thread the sphere. I.e. we must easialy
be able to visit every point once and only once.
    2) We must be able to find all represented points withing a certain
radius of our subject point. E.g. I need all nodes within two of this one.
    3) We must be able to trace a diameter in a small number of cardinal
directions eventually reaching our starting point.
    4) It must be recursively definable. I.e. we must be able to increase
the resolution infinately.

    So what do we do?
    Hexes are nice, traditional and great for flat surfaces but a bit of a
bollox when you hit the corners. I think triangles are out best bet. Lets
work through the criteria in reverse order.
    (4) Recursively definable:
       /\               /\               /\
      /  \             /  \             /8_\
     /    \           / 2  \           /\2 /\
    /      \   ==>   /______\    ==>  /9_\/10\  ==> ...
   /        \       /\      /\       /\7 /\6 /\
  /    1     \     /  \ 1  /  \     /11\/1_\/14\
 /            \   / 3  \  / 4  \   /\3 /\5 /\4 /\
/______________\ /______\/______\ /12\/13\/15\/16\    no problem.
    (3) diameter.
    Always stand in a triangle with our backs to a base. If we go through
the left face, then with our back to that in the new triange go through the
right face repeatedly we will circumnavagate the sphere. Choosing which
base and wether to go left or right first gives us six directions.
    (2) find all points within a radius
    If you assume that an adjacent triangle is a triangle sharing
a base you have no problem and minimal difficulty on corners. A more
attractive way is to have any triangle which shares a vertex be one
unit away. This has rather more difficulties.
    (1) threading the sphere.
    I haven't been able to come up with an algorithmical way to do this.
It is, of course, trivial if one numerically orders the triangles. This
brings us to my mental block. To come up with a numbering system for
the triangles of the sphere that caters for the conditions above.
    What this boils down to is that the above scheme is mathematically
elegant it needs four things to make it usefull. (4) a way of uniquely 
identifying {preferably with an integer, or ordered pair} each triangle
element on the sphere. This numbering system must remain compatible as
the resolution is increased. (3) A function that when given a location
id and a direction, returns a location id of the next triangle along 
that diameter. (2) A function that is passed a location and returns
a fixed number of locations distance one from the given location. (1)
A function that given a locations returns another location such that
if continually called with the return value it will cycle through all
locations before returning.
    Is there a fresh mind out there that can see what I can't?

    			-- Jo Jaquinta

- ------------------------------

Date: 30 Oct 89 09:30:13 PST (Mon)
From: James T Perkins <jamesp@dadla.wr.tek.com>
Subject: Star Systems
To: joshua@atherton.com, jamesp@dadla.wr.tek.com,

Here's something that Mark Gellis requested be shared with the working
group here.  And Mark, if you'd like to join the discussion group, rather
than getting the periodic digest, you may write to:

	morrison@pyr.gatech.edu (Bill Morrison).



- ------- Forwarded Message

Date: Sat, 28 Oct 89 13:16:51 -0500
From: Mark Gellis <f3w@mentor.cc.purdue.edu>
To: traveller-request%dadla.wr.tek.com@RELAY.CS.NET
Subject: Star systems

James, if this meets your approval, please pass it on to the rest of the 
group.

Phew!  I just read (skimmed) the discussion on mapping.  A few comments and
suggestions that may be of some help...

3D mapping is easy if you add a calculation subroutine to determine 
distances between stars of different "z" levels.  In fact, both 2D and 3D 
maps might be better if there was a table (like in modern road atlases) 
that show how far in jumps or hyperdrive days or whatever different people 
use different stars are from each other.  Equally easy would be adding a 
star type generator that would not only determine the location, but the 
main sequence stellar type (using percentages...01-73: M; 74-88: K; 89-95: 
G; 96-98: F, 99: A; 00: other (black hole, supergiant, whatever your little
heart desires)--actually A-type stars make up only about .6% of the main 
sequence, and white dwarves make up about 5% of all stars, but people can 
modify the system as they please.)

By the way, for realism fans who are afraid M-type stars offer nothing for
gamers...GOOD NEWS.  Remember, M-type stars are just as likely to have
planets as G-type stars, and even if most of them are Neptune-like gas 
giants, big deal?  Remember our discussion of space habitats, each one a
floating city with a million people, clustered in nations of a billion 
people or more.  Gas giants have giant moons for raw materials (okay, okay,
I know a lot of it will be water ice, think of it as "panning for gold" on
a big scale) and lots of hydrogen to fuel fusion power plants.  And 
asteroid belts have high quality raw materials in great abundance and 
easy access.  The average solar system can have several hundred "worlds,"
each one consisting of a network of a hundreds of space cities--tens or
hundreds of billions of NPCs who need the help (or are asking to get killed
by) your player characters!

(By the way "a hundreds of" should read "hundreds of"--I apologize for being
such a bad typist)

     Mark

- ------- End of Forwarded Message

- ------------------------------

Date: Tue Oct 31 13:54:17 1989
From: richard@agora.hf.intel.com (Richard Johnson)
Subject: traveller maps
To: morrison@agora.hf.intel.com

  	About copyrights (re: Canada and US) -- the laws are now basically
	the same.  The U.S. has finally changed its laws to comply with 
	the international standards for copyrights.  Whatever the conditions
	are, will be same in both countries.  

	In general, those who write portions of the program(s) have
	first right to those portions (unless somebody paid them to
	do it, and under specified conditions).  

	For our purposes, we specify that these materials are for 
	public use, freely distributed, or whatever we want.  We make
	sure our terms are clearly displayed by the user, and we make
	sure we enforce our terms.  This means the terms must be 
	visible in the compiled version, not just the source code.  It
	also means we can't ask for $$$ and controlled distribution
	unless we can *and do* go after people who violate our terms.

- ------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Oct 89 10:44:17 edt
From: mleymaster@lucy.wellesley.edu
Subject: TRAVELLER Star System Data Formats
To: morrison@relay.cs.net:mleymaster@lucy.wellesley.edu

Dear Bill; Jim Perkins suggested I contact you about my interest in a
simple yet compatible data format for TRAVELLER Sector files.  I know of
Marc Miller's format that was published in Challenge, and note that the
extensive data files from GDW/DGP uploaded to GENIE add a chunk of ASCII
in the front for the system names, wasting a batch of space because most
systems are unnamed.  Are you aware of any evolving formats that would save
me the embarassment of building an avoidably non-standard program?  I am 
working in the PC-XT environment with sequential ASCII records that are 
readable on a simple editor.  Are there any old messages that address this
subject that you might be willing to E-mail to me?  Thanks --Mark

- ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Nov 89 09:55:19 est
From: mleymaster@lucy.wellesley.edu
Subject: Traveller Star System Generation Group
To: morrison@relay.cs.net:mleymaster@lucy.wellesley.edu

Bill- I would love to join the discussion.  I vote strongly for ASCII, and
suggest excluding hi-eighth bit and non-printing characters. It is key that
any sophisticated work product be accessible to those with simple machines,
such as Commodore 64s and Apple IIs.  I think the databases are best if 
readable (and revisable) by hand with a simple editor, which argues strongly
for a sequential not random file that can function without indexes.  What 
those of us with more sophistication wish to do (build indexes, relational 
lists, graphic front ends etc) is fine, so long as the building blocks we
start with don't require any particular form of display, CPU or programming
language.  I'd be obliged if you let me know what you think. --Mark

- ------------------------------

Date: Wed, 8 Nov 89 08:34:59 EST
From: morrison@pyr.gatech.edu (William B. Morrison)
Subject: Where to send the surveys
To: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu, burdick@hpindl1.hp.com, dan@engrg.uwo.ca,

Please remember to send the surveys to Dan Corrin <dan@engrg.uwo.ca>
and not to me. He will be collecting them and I will post the
results.

- --Bill

- ------------------------------

End of Traveller System Generation Group Digest
******************************

All opinions and material above is the responsibility of the originator.
Submissions: traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com, or uunet!dadla.wr.tek.com!traveller
Administrator: traveller-request@dadla.wr.tek.com (James Perkins)
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by Tektronix, Inc.

-------- End of TML Messages --------


-------- TML Message #723 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 723
Date: Fri, 17 Nov 89 12:15:41 PST
From: (Scott Ellsworth) sellswor@jarthur.claremont.edu
Subject: Twilight's peak


  Last year, I was running a rather neat MT game based very loosely on
the Twighlight's peak scenario.  It was rather neat, but since the end of the
year (and graduation) was heading our way, we decided to end it.  I tweaked
the ending a bit (lots!) so that the players were the only people aware
of the incoming Zho fleet.  (I forgot that there is no reason for the
Zhodani to attack in the shattered imperium environment.  Sigh)

  On the plus side, I gave them the ancient base, chock full of obedient
warriors.  Logic: the warriors really did not want to die, but could
not justify thier continued existence without an appropriate leader
caste & droyne society.  The players knew of the chirpers, and the
droyne warrior caste leader was a bit unhinged, so he decided that they would
cleanse the planet of pollutants, bring in many chirpers, a few droyne
from elsewhere, and start a new band of Ancients.  Obviously, this
is not the most sane plan, but the leader was not the most sane of creatures.

  The disadvantage was that the players had to pretend to fit into the droyne
caste system, or the leader would happily disintegrate them as "unfit."

  The players wished to 1. repel the Zhodani invasion
  2. prevent a similar one from happening again
  3. get heaps and piles of money
  4. duplicate the resources of the base far away for thier own use.

  Thier methods for 1 and 2 were a bit crude, but effective.  
(artificial plague)  In the time we had left, they did not figure out a way
to do #4, so they did not get around to trying 3.

  Here is a case where a squadron of Tigress class ships couldn't do a damn
thing to them, but simple desire for human contact would get them in the end.
After all, the base was very immobile, and the droyne did not understand its
construction.  If they wanted to see people again, they would have to leave
it.  They might not be allowed back, either.  I was pleased.

  Scott

  



-------- TML Message #724 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 724
Date: Sat, 18 Nov 89 18:11:06 -0500
From: (Mark Gellis) f3w@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Ships, weapons, and insanity



Thanks to all for their responses to my earlier comments.  I was inspired
while reading them by the remark someone made about their idea for fuel
consumption for spacecraft.  Ah yes, fighters do require more power for
their weapons.  I learned this the hard way.  Although GDW has kindly
provided us with ship design systems and a supplement or three of "common
[Dspacecraft," and although I inherited an additional system from a friend
(now ex-friend, but that's another story), I foolishly decided to tinker
together a "realistic" spacecraft design system.

Does the word "mistake" mean anything to you?

Actually, it has turned out pretty well.  My system probably has errors in
it that would send engineers into hysterics, but most people find it (a)
plausible and (b) roughly playable (with a little practice, you can design
just about anything you could ever want, and you get a lot of detail about
what is actually on your spacecraft).  (The reason it is plausible is that
I annnoyed all my engineer questions with stupid questions about how much
things mass, and what kind of thrust-weight ratios do you get with certain
kinds of engine, etc.  There are still errors, but a lot less than in a lot
of other systems; I guess I'll have to be satisfied with that.)

Incidently, for those of you who are curious, power requirements for normal
spacecraft (including life support, power for computers, sensors, etc.) is
about ten kilowatts per ton of spacecraft--actually, I use something called
Power Units, which are about ten kilowatts each; it makes it easier to handle
the bookkeeping--but the moment you go to armed spacecraft (except for
things like missiles which only require a little power to magnetically
accelerate them out of a launching catapult), your power requirements go
through the roof.  An armed spacecraft will probably end up using something
like forty or fifty times the power of an unarmed spacecraft of the same
general size.  This is one of the reasons why they are so expensive.

By the way, some good books on the subject of spacecraft design include
FUTURE MAGIC, by Robert Forward, and especially THE FUTURE OF FLIGHT by
Dean Ing (Ing is not only a good writer, but he provides a bibliography
of his technical sources, something which many so-called science writers
leave out).  One of his chapters even has a couple of "story ideas" that
might make good Traveller adventures.

Well, take care all.

     Mark



-------- TML Message #725 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 725
Date: Mon, 20 Nov 89 11:20:09 EST
From: ("William B. Morrison") morrison@pyr.gatech.edu
Subject: My apologies to the group


I apologize to those on the list for not including subject lines
for issue #2 (and addendum) of the Star System Generation group.
I know the last think I want to see is a 1000+ line article when
I could have by-passed it after reading the header...

- --Bill Morrison



-------- TML Message #726 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 726
Subject: ship deck plans
Date: Mon Nov 20 11:18:56 1989
From: richard@agora.hf.intel.COM (Richard Johnson)



Scott Ellsworth suggested the idea of ship deck plans.  I have often
considered the idea myself.  *NOTE: first, let's get build 1 out of the
way [ed]*  I think it's possible if it's done modularly.  That is, "here
is an x-type cabin"  add enough cabins, holds, whatever together.  Then
the main program interactively rearranges the parts into some form
recognizable as a starship.

Lot of work, though...
	Richard



-------- TML Message #727 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 727
Subject: More Anarchy
Date: Mon Nov 20 13:00:56 1989
From: richard@agora.hf.intel.COM (Richard Johnson)



Someone asked me to say more about my subsector-cum-anarchy.

Well, its name is "the Talmegiian Confederation".  36 world
systems are in the confederation (they used to have 37, but 
the Imperium took one {another story}).  One system, Talmegiia,
is formally and vehemently NOT a member of the confederation.
Consequently, all important matters for the confederation get
settled here.

following is the brief write-up I gave this world when I generated
the subsector.

Talmegiia	Location D3 (local co-ordinates)
		C 446400 (13)  Trav's *

{brief explanation: when I did this subsector, I did not use hex
 notation for anything.  Thus, the tech level of (13).  I also
 created a Traveller's Aid Society rating for the world's overall
 hospitality and facilities (like the AAA does).  Talmegiia got
one star.}

Talmegiia has a long history of isolationist neutrality.  Consequently,
Tal volunteered to be the negotiating site for the creation of the 
confederation (it still refuses to become a member).  At one point
in the proceedings, a Churichian ambassador threatened mayhem on
the delegate from Omigosh for proposing the words "no central authority"
and "no taxes" be included in the preamble of the charter.  Rather
than let the right to the opinion of the delegate be violated, Tal
immediately closed the convention for the day.  A spectator loaned the 
two ambassadors swords.

After the fight, Churich left the conference and vowed revenge on
Talmegiia and Omigosh.  (Tal's doctors fixed up both parties.
Churich's ambassador thus lost face, etc.)


Traveller's Inn
OK Starport (class C)
some historical value
Talmege University (outstnading quality)

major trade: Tourism, education,  NA NI R


For Ref:  possible "good find" for artifacts
	  psi institute present

- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
A couple of notes, if you're still reading.

Omigosh and Churich are neighboring worlds that have been at war
off and on for hundreds of years.  The development of the confederation
gave Churich the reasoning it wanted to petition BOTH the Zhodani
and the Imperium for membership.  This caused many wonderful hours
at the gaming table.

Eventually, the Imperium got Churich (and then declared it an
Amber Zone for "unfriendly activites").

Richard




-------- TML Message #728 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 728
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 89 08:32 EST
From: B_MAHONE%UNHH.BITNET@mitvma.mit.edu
Subject: How big?


Ok, folks.  Here's a fun one:

One of my players, seeing a Frankiln Mint ad in TV guide for a USS Enterprise
model, asks how the "E" compares to common Traveller ships in terms of size.

The ad states that the "E" has a displacement weight of 190,000 tons.  Is that
the same unit of measure used for Traveller ships?  Anyone want to compare
Apples & Oranges?

- -Bob



-------- TML Message #729 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 729
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 89 15:53:19 EST
From: ("Alvin M. Chan") ugachan@cs.buffalo.edu
Subject: Enterprise


With regards to the post about the ad for a Franklin Mint USS Enterprise

I'm not too sure about the exact tonnage of the Enterprise (any version)
But one day, I was perusing the model section of a Toys R Us store
and they had models for the Kirk-blinking lights era, the movie era, and
the new generation era.  They even had one kit with all three!  Now thats
a lot of plastic!  Of course, myself having a colander mind, and this shopping
trip being about a month or so ago, I dont remember any specs on the boxes.

I do remember that the scale of the new generation model was 1/2500.
and the model i guess would be about 2 feet long. maybe more, the box was
pretty hefty.

	- Alv

           Alvin M. Chan -- SUNY at Buffalo - Philosophy ==> Real Life
   +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
  / Internet: ugachan@cs.buffalo.edu     /     Bitnet: acscamc@ubvms.bitnet /
 +-------------------------------------------------------------------------+



-------- TML Message #730 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 730
Date: Tue, 21 Nov 89 12:53:58 -0800
From: (Happiness is a Goal in Sight and a Path Underfoot 21-Nov-1989 1551) baranski@yoda.enet.dec.COM
Subject: ship sizes


RE: compare USS Enterprise to Traveller ships.

I believe the Space Shuttle have approximately the same displacement and
dimensions as a Scout Ship.

Jim Baranski



-------- TML Message #731 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 731
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 89 00:08:11 -0500
From: (Mark Gellis) f3w@mentor.cc.purdue.edu
Subject: Ships, displacement



A few notes that might be helpful....

Displacement = mass in tons (since you are "displacing" that many tons in
water).  The space shuttle masses about 78 tons empty (it is supposed to
be about the size and weight as a DC-9) and can carry about 23 tons of 
cargo to LEO.  

By Traveller standards, and by modern Earth standards, the Enterprise is,
pardon my language, fucking huge.  A few modern Earth ships, to put it in
scale...

Broadsword (NATO) frigate  3,500 tons (4,400 full load)
Los Angeles class attack submarine 6,900 tons (dived)
Nimitz class aircraft carrier 91,000 tons (full load)

USS Enterprise is supposed to be 190,000 tons...that's two Nimitz class
carriers.  Since the Enterprise does not have to dedicate so much of its
internal space and mass to flight hangers, maintenance equipment, etc., 
it might be better to call her 4 Iowa class battlships (they're about
45,000 tons, as I recall).

By the way, using the 6,000-man crew of the Nimitz as a rough measure,
the Enterprise uses only about five percent of the man/kiloton ratio of
modern naval vessels.  Now that's what I call impressive automaintenance!

   Take care, all.

    Mark




-------- TML Message #732 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 732
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 89 04:10:21 -0500
From: (Palmer Davis) davisp@skybridge.scl.cwru.edu
Subject: USS NIMITZ (CVN-68) is much bigger than USS ENTERPRISE (NCC-1701).



>Displacement = mass in tons (since you are "displacing" that many tons in
>water).

Displacement is measured in tons of *water* for modern day naval vessels,
but in Traveller, displacement (High Guard "displacement" and MegaTraveller
UCP code) is measured in tons of *hydrogen* displaced.  The two scales are
*very* dissimilar, as water masses 9 times as much as hydrogen (MW H2 is
roughly 2 g/mol; MW H20 is about 18.1 g/mol)....

>Broadsword (NATO) frigate  3,500 tons (4,400 full load)

* 9 = 39,600 tons of hydrogen

>Los Angeles class attack submarine 6,900 tons (dived)

* 9 = 62,100 tons of hydrogen

>Nimitz class aircraft carrier 91,000 tons (full load)

* 9 = 819,000 tons of hydrogen

>USS Enterprise is supposed to be 190,000 tons...that's two Nimitz class
>carriers.  Since the Enterprise does not have to dedicate so much of its
>internal space and mass to flight hangers, maintenance equipment, etc., 
>it might be better to call her 4 Iowa class battlships (they're about
>45,000 tons, as I recall).

Well... it might be better still to call her three Los Angeles-class subs.
However, as you can see, ships today come out much heavier in Traveller 
"tons" than their size would seem to indicate.  The reason is that "classic" 
Traveller displacement calculations were based on pure volume rather than 
actual hydrogen displacement.  If you want an *accurate* comparison between,
say, the NIMITZ, the ENTERPRISE, and the AZHANTI HIGH LIGHTNING, take the
deck plans of all three ships and convert their respective volumes into
kiloliters.  One traditional Traveller "ton" in the sense you're used to 
thinking about it is the equivalent of 13.5 kiloliters.  

The ENTERPRISE is *NOT* twice the size of the NIMITZ.  If you want a very
simple argument for this, take the LOA, beam, and "draft" (extended from the
keel to the flight deck for the NIMITZ and from the bottom of the secondary
hull to the top of the warp engines for the ENTERPRISE) of both ships, then
consider that the NIMITZ is almost a monolithic block (configuration 4)
whereas the ENTERPRISE is a dispersed structure (configuration 7)....

- -- Palmer Davis --



-------- TML Message #733 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 733
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 89 04:11:58 EST
From: (wilson m liaw) macgyver@cis.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Displacement



	Well, actully Enterprise is not that big, I mean it's only 190,000 ton
in displacement. Most Battleship in MegaTraveller is at least equal or bigger.
Take Imperial Voroshilef Class Battleship for example, the displacement
is 200,000 ton. And yes, as Mark stated. The unit in MegaTraveller/Traveller
and modern Navy is the same.

				Mac



-------- TML Message #734 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 734
From: (Adrian Hurt) adrian%cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
Subject: Twilight's peak revisited
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 89 10:21:22 BST


>   Last year, I was running a rather neat MT game based very loosely on
> the Twighlight's peak scenario.  It was rather neat, but since the end of the
> year (and graduation) was heading our way, we decided to end it.  I tweaked
> the ending a bit (lots!) so that the players were the only people aware
> of the incoming Zho fleet.  (I forgot that there is no reason for the
> Zhodani to attack in the shattered imperium environment.  Sigh)

On the contrary - there is no reason for the Zhodani NOT to attack the Spinward
Marches.  Who's going to stop them?  Throw out the "official" explanation.  As
I recall, it was something like "they no longer regard the Marches as a threat,
and are content to let it be".  Now, out of five Frontier Wars, how many did
the Zhodani start?  How many did the Imperium start?  5 - 0 to the Zhodani, if
my history books are reliable.  So who's threatening whom?  (I have my own
reason for the Zhodani not bothering the Marches.  It involves another Vargr
warlord, who's managed to combine TL 16 and population level 10, and isn't too
fond of Zhodani.)

>   The players wished to 1. repel the Zhodani invasion
>   2. prevent a similar one from happening again
>   3. get heaps and piles of money
>   4. duplicate the resources of the base far away for thier own use.
> 
>   Thier methods for 1 and 2 were a bit crude, but effective.  
> (artificial plague)  In the time we had left, they did not figure out a way
> to do #4, so they did not get around to trying 3.
> 
>   Here is a case where a squadron of Tigress class ships couldn't do a damn
> thing to them, but simple desire for human contact would get them in the end.

Maybe not.  But if the players started getting obnoxious, one Tigress class
with a chirper on board might.  The Imperials have figured out what's happening
and sent this chirper along, with instructions to pretend to be a leader.
Either there's a gun secretly pointed at him; or the rest of the squadron is
threatening his home village; or he's been promised loadsamoney or loads of
Ancient goodies in return.  So he gets on the communicators, and tells the
Droyne that he's a leader, the PC's are evil alien invaders, and as of now he
is taking charge.

 "Keyboard? How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk



-------- TML Message #735 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 735
Date: Wed, 22 Nov 89 10:53:16 EST
From: (Dan Corrin) dan@engrg.uwo.ca
Subject: GaelCon Tournament


Jo Jaquinta has been nice enough to post the MegaTraveller tournament from
GaelCon '89. It is available from the ftp server as GaelConMT1.Z and
GaelConMT2.Z, the entire tournament is over 100K of text. Jo is thinking
about publishing this, so copyrights apply here, use it for your personal
use only, if you want permission for anything else contact Jo at:
	jaymin@maths.tcd.ie


	-Dan Corrin (FTP site coordinator).






-------- TML Message #736 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 736
From: (Bertil Jonell) d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se
Subject: MegaTraveller Ships & Vehicles (long)
Date: Sat, 25 Nov 89 16:50:03 MET DST


(If anyones mailer pukes when it encounters this file (It's 36k)
 mail me and I'll try to forward it to you)

MEGATRAVELLER SHIPS & VEHICLES  (C)BKKJ89

(Note: Some of these designs are loosely based on old GDW designs that
 appeared in 'Traveller' 'MegaTraveller: Imperial Encyclopedia' 
 'Fighting Ships' och 'Alien Module: Vargr'.  This will be noted where
 applicable.)

"Traveller" & "MegaTraveller" are GDW Trademarks.

Notes on notation: Some notation is of my own devising. Most notably the
 fractional lifesupport and FuelPurificationPlant times:
 In several cases I have cut down on lifesupport ( & gravitics) for non-
 essential parts of the ship, in order to save power and volume. This isn't 
 standard practice (in ship design) and it tend to make certain repairs more
 difficult to perform inflight. Most of these designs, however, are so close
 to their performance limits that I think that this practice is economic.
 FPP times are the time (in hours) it takes to purify the full volume of the
 ships fueltanks. The danger in this case is that you can't jump until you
 have enough fuel purifyed (or else risk a misjump). The manuverdrives in
 every case demands so little fuel per timeunit so the purification pnalt can
 keep equal to the demand (even though it might have to operate around-the-
 clock.
   
One deviation from the rules that I know I'm guilty of is using the HighGuard
version of 'Space taken up by subordinate crafts' instead of the MegaT version.
The old version was: This does not apply if the carrier is < 1000 tons!
I have assumed that the 1.5 modifyer enables almost any sort of subordinate
craft to be carries, regardless of shape, as long as the tonnage is right.
In all cases below are the smallcraft bays considered to be designed for
subcrafts of the listed type and, thus, not require any large additional volume

Feel free to mail if you have any questions or if you find any traces of
Swedish in the ships data (I originally wrote this in Swedish but I hope that
I have found and translated everything :-)

PRICES INCLUDES WEAPONS, ARCHITECTS FEES, AND LONG SERIES 

SHIPS INCLUDED:
	MERCENARY CRUISER			Type C Mk2
	FAST ESCORT				Type EF
	SUBSIDIZED LINER			Type M
	GUNNED MERCHANT/CORRIDOR LINER		Type MG / Type RP
	IMC DROPSHIP TL13			Type NS
	IMC DROPSHIP TL15			Type NS
	PATROL CRUISER				Type T Mk2
	IMC PATROL CRUISER			Type T-MFG
	FAST PATROL CRUISER			Type TF
	VARGR TRADER				Type VA
	VARGR FRIGATE				Type VF
	VARGR SEEKER TL12			Type VJ
	VARGR SEEKER TL13			Type VJ
	VARGR SEEKER TL14			Type VJ
	VARGR PACKET				Type VM
	VARGR CORSAIR				Type VP
	VARGR SCOUT				Type VS
	VARGR COURIER				Type VX

VEHICLES INCLUDED:
	IMC ISHKIIAKIM ARMORED FIGHTING GRAV VEHICLE
	IMC GUKAKHAADAR ARMORED PERSONELL GRAV CARRIER
	EXPERIMENTAL MAIN BATTLE GRAV TANK
	IMC OPEN-TOP AIR/RAFT

MERCENARY CRUISER
	CraftID:Mercenary Cruiser, Type C Mk2, TL15, MCr 315.997
	Hull:	810/2025, Disp=900, Config=5SL, Armor=40G, Unloaded=6470tons,
		Loaded=10328tons
	Power:	121/161, Fusion=8712MW, Duration=19/58
	Loco:	243/324, Manuever=3, 121/162, Jump=3, NOE=190, Cruise=750, 
		Top=1000, Agility=0
	Commo:	Radio=System
	Sensors:PassiveEMS=Interstellar, ActiveEMS=FarOrbit, Neutrino=10kW, 
		ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine, PasEngScan=Simple, 
		PasEngPin=Routine
	Off:	Missiles=x06, Batt=1, Bear=1, w/ 20 battery rds, BLasers=x03, 
		Batt=1, Bear=1, FGuns=x06, Batt=1, Bear=1
	Def:	DefDM=+6
	Control:Computer=5x3, Panel=Holodynamic link x 96, Special=HoloHUD x 7,
		Environ= basic env, basic ls, extended ls, grav plates,
		inertial comp, AirLocks=4
	Accomm:	Crew=15(Bridge=3,Engineering=3, Gunnery=6, Command=2, Medic=1),
		Staterooms=25, Subcraft=Modular Cutter x 2, ExtraModules x 2, 
		ATV x 2, air/raft
	other:	Cargo=1080kl, Fuel=4420kl, Scoops, PurificationPlant=54h, 
		ObjSize=Large, EMLevel=Moderate

	The Merc-cruiser is a reworking of the Type C from 'Encyclopedia' to
 	allow for (at least) some heavy weapons. It is mostly used by well
	equipped Merc forces because of its higher operating costs.
	Some ships are rumored to be working as pirates in corridor but
	nothing specific is known. While it is relatively easy to disguise
	the laser-/energyturrets as missileturrets (as the 'Old' Type C) it is
	hard to disguise the powerplant signature.
	(Even though, at least the old 'Beltstrike' stated that it was 
	possible to run the powerplant on a fraction of its output. I'm not
	sure if this is the case in MegaT.)

FAST ESCORT
	CraftID:Fast Escort, Type EF, TL15, MCr 752.604
	Hull:	900/2250, Disp=1000, Config=5SL, Armor=43G, Unloaded=13005tons,
                Loaded=13424tons
	Power:	110/220, Fusion=29808MW, Duration=11/34
	Loco:	153/306, Manuever=6, 45/90, Jump=4, NOE=190, Cruise=750, 
                Top=1000, Agility=6
	Commo:	Radio=System, Maser=System, Meson=FarOrbit
	Sensors:EMMask, PassiveEMS=Interstellar x 3, ActiveEMS=FarOrbit, 
                Densitometer=HiPen/1km x 2, Neutrino=10kW x 3, 
                ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine, PasObjScan=Routine, 
                PasObjPin=Routine, PasEngScan=Simple, PasEngPin=Routine
	Off:	ParticleAccelerator=003, Batt=1, Bear=1, FusionGun=x05, Batt=1,
                Bear=1, Missiles=x05, Batt=1, Bear=1, w/ 40 battery rds
	Def:	DefDM=+15, SandCaster=xx4, Batt=3, Bear=3
	Control:Computer=9fibx3, Panel=Holodynamic link x 142, 
                Special=HoloHUD x 4, Environ= basic env, basic ls, extended ls,
                grav plates, inertial cmp (for entire volume except fuel tanks)                AirLocks=4
	Accomm:	Crew=8(Bridge=2, Engineers=2, Gunnery=2, Command=1, Medic=1), 
                Staterooms=8
	Other:	Cargo=81kl, Fuel=7426kl, Scoops, ObjSize=Large, EMLevel=Faint

	This is the ship that I claimed was impossible to build with the
	MegaT rules! It is, in essence an Chrysantemum class escort. 
	(You know, the one with the spherical bridgesection and two engine (?)
        necelles from 'Fighting Ships'). It's low endurance certainly is a 
	problem but this is, to some degree, offset by it's deployment. The
	Type EF is used by the navy for Convoy protection and the Merchants
	protected are required to carry extra fuel for their escorts use.
	There has been rumors in the Navy that the experiments whith robot-
	crewed ships have used Type EF's as testbeds. 
	The only confirmed case of theft of one of these vessels were,
	the story goes, perpetrated by the interstellar terrorist Preben 
	Moeller. He was declared dead when the Type EF he had stolen crashed
	and exploded on a minor asteroid in the Gandr belt (Spinward 2425).

SUBSIDIZED LINER
	CraftID:Subsidized Liner, Type M, TL15, MCr 119.757
	Hull:	540/1350, Disp=600, Config=4USL, Armor=40G, Unloaded=2733tons,
                Loaded=5981tons
	Power:	7/15, Fusion=2016MW, Duration=30/90
	Loco:	11/22, Manuever=1, 22/43, Jump=3, VaccumCruise=900, 
                VaccumTop=1200, Agility=0
	Commo:	Radio=System
	Sensors:PassiveEMS=Interstellar, ActiveEMS=FarOrbit, 
                ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine, PasEngScan=Routine
	Off:	Missiles=x03, Batt=1, Bear=1, w/ 10 battery rds, BLasers=x04, 
                Batt=1, Bear=1
	Def:	DefDM=+4, SCaster=x04, Batt=1, Bear=1
	Control:Computer=3x3, Panel=Holodynamic link x 145, Special=HoloHUD x 3
                Environ (Excludes Fuel Tanks)= basic env, basic ls, extended ls
                grav plates, inertial comp, AirLocks=3
	Accomm:	Crew=8(Bridge=2, Engineering=2, Command=1, Medic=1, Stewards=2)
                Staterooms=30, LowBerths=20, HighPsg=22, LowPsg=20, 
                SubCraft=40ton Pinnace or Slow Pinnace
	Other:	Cargo=2246kl, Fuel=2382kl, Scoops, PurificationPlant=57h, 
                ObjSize=Average, EMLevel=Moderate

	Ahh, Ye olde subsidized liner, The favourite of many a fledgling and 
	interface lines! This is taken from old 'The Traveller Book' and is
	included because (apparently) got lost in the MegaT rules.
        This version has one each of sandcaster, laser and missile turrets
	as an adaption to the present turmoil.

GUNNED MERCHANT (CORRIDOR LINER)
	CraftID:Gunned Merchant, Type MG/Type RP, TL15, MCr 141.911
	Hull:	540/1350, Disp=600, Config=7USL, Armor=40G, Unloaded=2814tons, 
                Loaded=6029tons
	Power:	14/19, Fusion=2556MW, Duration=30/90
	Loco:	16/22, Manuever=1, 32/43, Jump=3, VaccumCruise=900, 
                VaccumTop=1200, Agility=1
	Commo:	Radio=System
	Sensors:PassiveEMS=Interstellar, ActiveEMS=FarOrbit, Neutrino=10kW, 
                Densitometer=LoPen/250m, ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine,
                PasObjScan=Routine, PasObjPin=Routine, PasEngScan=Simple, 
                PasEngPin=Routine
	Off:	Missiles=x05, Batt=1, Bear=1, w/ 10 battery rds, BLasers=x04, 
                Batt=1, Bear=1
	Def:	DefDM=+6, SCaster=x04, Batt=1, Bear=1
	Control:Computer=4x3, Panel=Holodynamic link x 87, Special=HoloHUD x 3,
                Environ (Excludes Fuel Tanks)= basic env, basic ls, extended ls
                grav plates, inertial comp, AirLocks=3
	Accomm:	Crew=8(Bridge=2, Engineering=2, Command=1, Medic=1, Stewards=2)
                Staterooms=25, EmergencyLowBerths=5(20), HighPsg=17, 
                SubCraft=50ton Modular Cutter w/ 1 Extra Module
	Other:	Cargo=1936kl+(800kl), Fuel=2540kl, Scoops, 
                PurificationPlant=24h, ObjSize=Average, EMLevel=Moderate

	The Gunned Merchant (as it's official name is) is a ship that is
	peculiar to 'The Claw' (Spinward, Deneb, Corridor). They first started
	to appear a few months after the beginning of the Vargr incursions in
	Corridor. The first ships was just converted SubLiners (Type M) but 
	the designbueros immediately catched on and the first purpose built 
        Gunned Merchants appeared as fast as they could be built. It is said
	that major reason for their success is that their concentrated
	missile salvoes are big enough to inflict major structural damage to
	the most common types of small pirates & corsairs.
	The name is under debate: Forces in the claw have always called this
	ship a Corridor Liner (Type RP) but the ones that have reached Ziru-
	Siirka (sp?) and the other fractions have been reclassifyed as
	Gunned Merchants (Type MG).
	A few is operated as combined decoys/piratehunters.
	The reaction by the Vargr has been that the Corsairs are starting to
	fly in groups (Wolfpacks :-) of two to five vessels.

IMPERIAL MARINES DROP SHIP
	CraftID:Drop Ship, Type NS, TL13, MCr 19.835
	Hull:	18/45, Disp=20, Config=6AF, Armor=40F, Unloaded=179.2tons, 
                Loaded=266tons
	Power:	1/2, Fusion=126MW, Duration=32/98
	Loco:	1/2, Manuever=2, NOE=170, Cruise=1430, Top=1910, Agility=1
	Commo:	Radio=System, Jammer=System, Laser=FarOrbit, Maser= FarOrbit
	Sensors:PassiveEMS=Interstellar, ActiveEMS=FarOrbit, 
                EMSJammer=Continental, Neutrino=100kW, Synthetic Vision=2, 
                ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine, PasEngScan=Routine, 
                PasEngPin=Difficult
	Off:	Missiles=x03, Batt=1, Bear=1, w/ 36missiles, 
                2 40mm MassDrivers, 1 7mm Gatling-8, The Missiles and 
                40's are operated by the Gunner, and the Gatling by the Pilot
	Def:	DefDM=+5
	Control:Computer=2bisx2, Panel=Holodynamic link x 2, Special=HUD x 1, 
                Environ= basic env for living-Q + cargo + hold, basic ls & 
                extended ls for living-Q, grav plates for living-Q + cargo, 
                inertial comp for living-Q + cargo + hold, AirLock=1
	Accomm:	Crew=2(Pilot=1, Gunner=1), Seats=roomyx6, 
                Subcraft=1 IMC AFV or APC
	Other:	Cargo=10kl, Fuel=27.6kl, ObjSize=Average, EMLevel=Faint

	This is a standard orbital assault ship used by the Imperial Marines
	Commandos. It has the advantage visavis the dropcapsules in the fact
	that it provides both a way up again as well as close air support.
	Taking a gravvehicle down to surface in one of these has the advantage
	of speed. It is faster to put the pedal to the metal down and deploy
	the gravtank in the low atmosphere that to let the gravtank 'sail'
	down self. (Fast gravvehicles like that make planetfall in 1 hour, 
	with this ship they are down in a 10-20 minutes)
	(The massdriver armament are designed according to houserules. I'll
	try to post them soon)

IMPERIAL MARINES DROP SHIP
	CraftID:Drop Ship, Type NS, TL15, MCr 22,019
	Hull:	18/45, Disp=20, Config=6AF, Armor=40G, Unloaded=134tons, 
                Loaded=297tons
	Power:	1/2, Fusion=258MW, Duration=8/24
	Loco:	1/2, AntiGravManuever=3, NOE=190, Cruise=1924, Top=2565, 
                Agility=1(6)
	Commo:	Radio=System, Jammer=System, Laser=FarOrbit, Maser= FarOrbit
	Sensors:EMMask, PassiveEMS=Interstellar, ActiveEMS=FarOrbit, 
                EMSJammer=Continental, Neutrino=100kW, Densitometer=LoPen/250m,
                Synthetic Vision=2, ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine, 
                PasObjScan=Routine, PasObjPin=Routine, PasEngScan=Simple, 
                PasEngPin=Routine
	Off:	Missiles=x03, Batt=1, Bear=1, w/ 36missiles, 2 60mm MassDrivers
                1 20mm MassDriver, The Missiles and 60's are operated by the 
                Gunner, and the 20 by the Pilot
        Def:    DefDM=+5(10)
	Control:Computer=2bisx2, Panel=Holodynamic link x 2, Special=HUD x 1, 
                Environ= basic env & basic ls for living-Q + cargo + hold, 
                extended ls for living-Q, grav plates for living-Q + cargo, 
                inertial comp for living-Q + cargo, AirLock=1
	Accomm:	Crew=2(Pilot=1, Gunner=1), Seats=roomy x 3, Subcraft=IMC AFGV 
                or APGC x 1
	Other:	Cargo=0.5kl, Fuel=25kl, ObjSize=Average, EMLevel=None

	The absolute most hitech of the IMC Commando Dropships. Only issued
	to top-of-the line units and for special missions.

PATROL CRUISER
	CraftID:Patrol Cruiser, Type T Mk2, TL15, MCr 176.752
	Hull:	396/990, Disp=440, Config=1SL, Armor=40G, Unloaded=3405tons, 
                Loaded=4715tons
	Power:	25/33, Fusion=4428MW, Duration=24/73
	Loco:	47/63, Manuever=4, 23/31, Jump=3, NOE=190, Cruise=750, Top=1000
                Agility=0
	Commo:	Radio=System, Laser=FarOrbit
	Sensors:EMMask, PassiveEMS=Interstellar, ActiveEMS=FarOrbit, 
                Densitometer=HiPen/1km, Neutrino=10kW, ActObjScan=Routine, 
                ActObjPin=Routine, PasObjScan=Routine, PasObjPin=Routine, 
                PasEngScan=Simple, PasEngPin=Routine
	Off:	Missiles=x04, Batt=1, Bear=1, W/ 20 battery rds, BLasers=x05, 
                Batt=1, Bear=1
	Def:	DefDM=+5
	Control:Computer=4fibx3, Panel=Holodynamic link x 47, 
                Special=HoloHUD x 4, Environ= basic env, basic ls, extended ls,
                 grav plates, inertial comp, AirLocks=2
	Accomm:	Crew=9(Bridge=2, Engineers=2, Gunnery=3, Command=1, Medic=1), 
                Staterooms=11, LowBerths=4, SubCraft= 30tons ShipsBoat, 
                GCarrier
	Other:	Cargo=972kl, Fuel=2495kl, Scoops, PurificationPlant=30h, 
                ObjSize=Average, EMLevel=Faint

	As opposed to the Type T in the 'Encyclopedia' this design actually 
	works for piracy supression. The lasers are strong enough to inflict 
	criticals on the common corsair ships. This variant is mostly
	encountered when on distinct search&destroy missions against pirate
	ships and bases. The 'Encyclopedia' versions are mostly used for 
	system security etc. There is no major external difference between
	this ship and the standard Type T. 

IMPERIAL MARINES PATROL CRUISER
	CraftID:Patrol Cruiser, Modifyed for Marine Corps service, Type T/MFG, 
                TL15, MCr 176.451
	Hull:	396/990, Disp=440, Config=1SL, Armor=40G, Unloaded=3418tons, 
                Loaded=4547tons
	Power:	25/33, Fusion=4428MW, Duration=24/73
	Loco:	47/63, Manuever=4, 23/31, Jump=3, NOE=190, Cruise=750, 
                Top=1000, Agility=0
	Commo:	Radio=System, Laser=FarOrbit, Maser= FarOrbit
	Sensors:EMMask, PassiveEMS=Interstellar, ActiveEMS=FarOrbit, 
                Densitometer=HiPen/1km, Neutrino=10kW, ActObjScan=Routine, 
                ActObjPin=Routine, PasObjScan=Routine, PasObjPin=Routine, 
                PasEngScan=Simple, PasEngPin=Routine
	Off:	Missiles=x04, Batt=1, Bear=1, W/ 20 battery rds, BLasers=x05, 
                Batt=1, Bear=1
	Def:	DefDM=+5
	Control:Computer=4fibx3, Panel=Holodynamic link x 47, 
                Special=HoloHUD x 4, Environ= basic env, basic ls, extended ls,
                grav plates, inertial comp, AirLocks=4
	Accomm:	Crew=24(Bridge=2, Engineers=2, Gunnery=3, DropShipCrew=2, 
                Command=3, Marines=12), Staterooms=14, EmergencyLowBerths=2(8),
                Subcraft=IMC DropShip x 2, IMC AFGV, IMC APGC, IMC air/raft
	Other:	Cargo=270kl, Fuel=2700kl, Scoops, PurificationPlant=24h, 
                ObjSize=Average, EMLevel=Faint

	This is a special version of the Type T that is used by the IMC
	Commandos so called 'Marine Frontier Groups', Small selfsufficient
	units organized and equipped to work for a long time behind enemy lines
	The only visible change on the outside (Except for the big IMC logos)
	is that that the central body is widened and has two hatches for
	the Dropships on the bottom. They are placed paralelly along the hulls
	long axis. Double occupancy is normal procedure for the whole crew
	except the command-crew. 

FAST PATROL CRUISER
	CraftID:Patrol Cruiser, Type TF, TL15, MCr 193.961
	Hull:	396/990, Disp=440, Config=1SL, Armor=40G, Unloaded=3621tons, 
                Loaded=4715tons
	Power:	25/33, Fusion=4266MW, Duration=27/82
	Loco:	47/63, Manuever=4, 36/47, Jump=5, NOE=190, Cruise=750, Top=1000
                Agility=2
	Commo:	Radio=System, Laser=FarOrbit, Maser=FarOrbit
	Sensors:EMMask, PassiveEMS=Interstellar, ActiveEMS=FarOrbit, 
                Densitometer=HiPen/1km, Neutrino=10kW, ActObjScan=Routine, 
                ActObjPin=Routine, PasObjScan=Routine, PasObjPin=Routine, 
                PasEngScan=Simple, PasEngPin=Routine
	Off:	Missiles=x05, Batt=1, Bear=1, W/ 40 battery rds
	Def:	DefDM=+7
	Control:Computer=4fibx3, Panel=Holodynamic link x 119, 
                Special=HoloHUD x 4, Environ= basic env, basic ls, extended ls,
                grav plates, inertial comp, AirLocks=2
	Accomm:	Crew=8(Bridge=2, Engineers=2, Gunnery=2, Command=1, Medic=1), 
                Staterooms=10, LowBerths=4, SubCraft= air/raft
	Other:	Cargo=580kl, Fuel=3186kl, Scoops, PurificationPlant=42h, 
                ObjSize=Average, EMLevel=Faint

	This is the 'Torpedoboat' of the Imperial Navy. It has adequate
	armament and very good jump. It is emplyed in squadrons to combat
	fighters and harass shipping. On the outside it is recognizable by the
	enlarged fuelscopes on the leading edge of the 'wings'. The Type TF
	commonly uses nuke missiles (75% conventional 25% nuke).

All vargr ships are based on designs from 'Alien Module: Vargr'. They were 
modifyed in the process of converting them to MegaT.

VARGR TRADER
	CraftID:Trader, Type VA, TL14, MCr 50.575
	Hull:	180/450, Disp=200, Config=2SL, Armor=40G, Unloaded=1445tons, 
                Loaded=2496tons
	Power:	9/19, Fusion=1332MW, Duration=30/90
	Loco:	9/18, Manuever=2, 5/11, Jump=2, Cruise=750, Top=1000, Agility=0
	Commo:	Radio=System
	Sensors:PassiveEMS=Interstellar, ActiveEMS=FarOrbit, 
                ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine, PasEngScan=Routine
	Off:	PLasers=x02, Batt=2, Bear=2
	Def:	DefDM=+2
	Control:Computer=1bisx3, Panel=Holodynamic link x 103, 
                Special=HoloHUD x 2, Environ (Excludes Fuel Tanks)= basic env, 
                basic ls, extended ls, grav plates, inertial comp, AirLocks=1
	Accomm:	Crew=5(Bridge=2, Engineering=2, Medic=1), Staterooms=5
	Other:	Cargo=1004kl, Fuel=938kl, Scoops, PurificationPlant=56h, 
                ObjSize=Average, EMLevel=Moderate

	The mainstay of Vargr small shipping, the Vargr Trader is found all
	over the Vargr Extents but every yard makes it's own small
	modifications and names the ships after itself. This kind of ships
	have recently made their apperance in the Ziru Siirka as the trade
	between it and the Extents are on the increase.

VARGR FRIGATE
	CraftID:Frigate, Type VF, TL15, MCr 291.609
	Hull:	720/1800, Disp=800, Config=3SL, Armor=40G, Unloaded=5997tons, 
                Loaded=7978tons
	Power:	53/70, Fusion=9486MW, Duration=25/75
	Loco:	86/115, Manuever=3, 43/58, Jump=3, NOE=190, Cruise=750, 
                Top=1000, Agility=2
	Commo:	Radio=System, Laser=System
	Sensors:PassiveEMS=Interstellar, ActiveEMS=FarOrbit, 
                Densitometer=HiPen/1km, Neutrino=10kW, ActObjScan=Routine, 
                ActObjPin=Routine, PasObjScan=Routine, PasObjPin=Routine, 
                PasEngScan=Simple, PasEngPin=Routine
	Off:	Missiles=x04, Batt=1, Bear=1, w/ 30 battery rds, BLasers=x05, 
                Batt=3, Bear=3
	Def:	DefDM=+5
	Control:Computer=4x3, Panel=Holodynamic link x 300, Special=HoloHUD x 6
                Environ (Excludes Fuel Tanks)= basic env, basic ls, extended ls
                grav plates, inertial comp, AirLocks=4
	Accomm:	Crew=18(Bridge=3, Engineering=4, Gunnery=8, Command=2, Medic=1)
                Staterooms=32, EmergencyLowBerths=3(12), Subcraft=40ton 
                Pinnace x 2, GCarrier
	Other:	Cargo=135kl, Fuel=5001kl, Scoops, PurificationPlant=100h, 
                ObjSize=Average, EMLevel=Moderate

	Common Naval ship used by smaller Vargr nations. These ships are
	beginning to appear as corsairs in Corridor under command by
	charismatic captains who thought that there was better prospects 
	looting than staying in the various Vargr Navies.

VARGR SEEKER
	CraftID:Seeker, Type VJ, TL12, MCr 33.535
	Hull:	180/450, Disp=200, Config=4USL, Armor=40F, Unloaded=1513tons, 
                Loaded=3148tons
	Power:	7/15, Fusion=672MW, Duration=30/90
	Loco:	4/7, Manuever=1, 4/7, Jump=1, VaccumCruise=900, VaccumTop=1200,
                Agility=0
	Commo:	Radio=System
	Sensors:PassiveEMS=Interstellar, ActiveEMS=FarOrbit, 
                Densitometer=HiPen/50m, ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine,
                PasObjScan=Difficult, PasObjPin=Difficult, PasEngScan=Routine
	Off:	PLasers=x01, Batt=1, Bear=1
	Def:	DefDM=+2
	Control:Computer=1x3, Panel=Dynamic link x 332, Special=HUD x 3, 
                Environ (Excludes Fuel Tanks)= basic env, basic ls, extended ls
                grav plates, inertial comp, AirLocks=1
	Accomm:	Crew=4(Bridge=2, Engineering=1, Medic=1), Staterooms=4, 
                EmergencyLowBerth=1(4), SubCraft=Launch
	Other:	Cargo=1226kl, Fuel=511kl, PurificationPlant=30h, 
                ObjSize=Average, EMLevel=Faint

	Cheap n dirty ship for Vargr Belters and others who don't care that
	the Air-regenerators smells mouldy. These ships are always sold at
	a price that is 1D * 5% lower than the listed value (The listed value 
	represents the value of a imperial-standard version of the Vargr
        Seeker). The lower the price, the lower the quality. If bought second-
        hand they might be the cheapest ships in Charted Space.
	Nothing about these ships is 'Standard' but in most cases they come 
	equipped with extra external lights and a big workbay, just like
	imperial seekers. Some versions do away with the inertial plates and
	some don't have any interior grav at all.

VARGR SEEKER
	CraftID:Seeker, Type VJ, TL13, MCr 31.082
	Hull:	180/450, Disp=200, Config=4USL, Armor=40F, Unloaded=1286tons, 
                Loaded=2934tons
	Power:	5/10, Fusion=684MW, Duration=30/90
	Loco:	4/7, Manuever=1, 4/7, Jump=1, VaccumCruise=900, VaccumTop=1200,
                Agility=0
	Commo:	Radio=System
	Sensors:PassiveEMS=Interstellar, ActiveEMS=FarOrbit, 
                Densitometer=HiPen/100m, ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine,
                PasObjScan=Difficult, PasObjPin=Difficult, PasEngScan=Routine
	Off:	PLasers=x02, Batt=1, Bear=1
	Def:	DefDM=+2
	Control:Computer=1x3, Panel=Holodynamic link x 81, Special=HoloHUD x 2,
                Environ (Excludes Fuel Tanks)= basic env, basic ls, extended ls
                grav plates, inertial comp, AirLocks=1
	Accomm:	Crew=4(Bridge=2, Engineering=1, Medic=1), Staterooms=4, 
                EmergencyLowBerth=1(4), SubCraft=Launch
	Other:	Cargo=1264kl, Fuel=544kl, PurificationPlant=32h, 
                ObjSize=Average, EMLevel=Faint

	See above.

VARGR SEEKER
	CraftID:Seeker, Type VJ, TL14, MCr 31.536
	Hull:	180/450, Disp=200, Config=4USL, Armor=40G, Unloaded=1008tons, 
                Loaded=2987tons
	Power:	5/10, Fusion=684MW, Duration=26/78
	Loco:	4/7, Manuever=1, 4/7, Jump=1, VaccumCruise=900, VaccumTop=1200,
                Agility=0
	Commo:	Radio=System
	Sensors:PassiveEMS=Interstellar, ActiveEMS=FarOrbit, 
                Densitometer=HiPen/250m, ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine,
                PasObjScan=Routine, PasObjPin=Routine, PasEngScan=Routine
	Off:	PLasers=x02, Batt=1, Bear=1
	Def:	DefDM=+2
	Control:Computer=1x3, Panel=Holodynamic link x 125, Special=HoloHUD x 2
                Environ (Excludes Fuel Tanks)= basic env, basic ls, extended ls
                grav plates, inertial comp, AirLocks=1
	Accomm:	Crew=4(Bridge=2, Engineering=1, Medic=1), Staterooms=4, 
                EmergencyLowBerth=1(4), SubCraft=ShipsBoat
	Other:	Cargo=1120kl, Fuel=501kl, PurificationPlant=30h, 
                ObjSize=Average, EMLevel=Faint

	See above.

VARGR PACKET
	CraftID:Packet, Type VM, TL15, MCr 115.449
	Hull:	540/1350, Disp=800, Config=7USL, Armor=40G, Unloaded=2975tons, 
                Loaded=5880tons
	Power:	12/25, Fusion=1683MW, Duration=30/90
	Loco:	11/32, Manuever=1, 21/65, Jump=3, VaccumCruise=900, 
                VaccumTop=1200, Agility=0
	Commo:	Radio=System
	Sensors:PassiveEMS=Interstellar, ActiveEMS=FarOrbit, Neutrino=10kW, 
                ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine, PasEngScan=Simple, 
                PasEngPin=Routine
	Off:	Missiles=x02, Batt=2, Bear=2, w/ 20 battery rds, BLasers=x03, 
                Batt=1, Bear=1
	Def:	DefDM=+5, SCaster=x03, Batt=2, Bear=2
	Control:Computer=2bisx3, Panel=Holodynamic link x 79, 
                Special=HoloHUD x 4, Environ (Excludes Fuel Tanks)= basic env, 
                basic ls, extended ls, grav plates, inertial comp, AirLocks=4
	Accomm:	Crew=11(Bridge=2, Engineering=2, Gunnery=2, Command=1, Medic=1,
                Stewards=3), Staterooms=36, LowBerths=10, HighPsg=25, LowPsg=10
                Subcraft=95ton Shuttle
	Other:	Cargo=1057kl, Fuel=2293kl, Scoops, PurificationPlant=46h, 
                ObjSize=Average, EMLevel=Moderate

	The Vargr Packet is a Medium merchantship that is employed much like 
	the Sub'sLiner is used in the Imperium. Mostly owned by interface and
	subsectorwide lines in the Extents.

VARGR CORSAIR
	CraftID:Corsair, Type VP, TL15, MCr 143.664
	Hull:	360/900, Disp=400, Config=6SL, Armor=40G, Unloaded=3324tons, 
                Loaded=4820tons
	Power:	33/44, Fusion=6012MW, Duration=9/27 (20/60)
	Loco:	56/74, Manuever=4, 16/21, Jump=2, NOE=190, Cruise=750, Top=1000
                Agility=2
	Commo:	Radio=System
	Sensors:EMMask, PassiveEMS=Interstellar, ActiveEMS=FarOrbit, 
                EMSJammer=FarOrbit, Densitometer=HiPen/1km, Neutrino=10kW, 
                ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine, PasObjScan=Routine, 
                PasObjPin=Routine, PasEngScan=Simple, PasEngPin=Routine
	Off:	Missiles=x04, Batt=1, Bear=1, w/ 20 battery rds, BLasers=x05, 
                Batt=1, Bear=1
	Def:	DefDM=+5
	Control:Computer=2x3, Panel=Holodynamic link x 134, 
                Special=LargeHoloDisplay, Environ= basic env, basic ls, 
                extended ls, grav plates, inertial comp, AirLocks=2
	Accomm:	Crew=16(Bridge=3, Engineering=4, Gunnery=6, Command=2, Medic=1)
                Staterooms=18, EmergencyLowBerths=2(8), SubCraft=2 GCarriers, 
                1 Modular Cutter w/ 2 Open Modules
	Other:	Cargo=(810kl), Fuel=1457kl+(810kl), Scoops, ObjSize=Average, 
                EMLevel=Faint

	This is the infamous Vargr Corsair, the sight of which will make 
	Imperial merchants from Spinward to Vland shudder. It packs the same
	disguisemeasures as the 'Imperial' Corsair but is heavily overloaded
	and underfueled. The fuelproblem is solved a complex procedure of 
	collapsible tanks and fuel trasnfers. At the start of the journey the
	Type VP has it's tanks filled and the Cutters open modules filled
	with 810tons in collapsible tanks. After the jump (but still in jump-
	space) this fuel is transferred to the main tanks and the collapsibles
	collapsed and stored. After reentry the Corsair refuels and begin
	hunting. As the fuel is consumed the space available in the open
	modules is taken up by loot. The voyage is ended by using the last
	fuel to jump home to a convenient gasgiant.

VARGR SCOUT
	CraftID:Scout, Type VS, TL15, MCr 31.504
	Hull:	90/225, Disp=100, Config=3SL, Armor=40G, Unloaded=810tons, 
                Loaded=1210tons
	Power:	5/10, Fusion=675MW, Duration=31/93
	Loco:	5/9, Manuever=2, 3/5, Jump=2, Cruise=750, Top=1000, Agility=0
	Commo:	Radio=System, Laser=System
	Sensors:PassiveEMS=Interstellar, ActiveEMS=FarOrbit, 
                Densitometer=LoPen/100m, Neutrino=10kW, ActObjScan=Routine, 
                ActObjPin=Routine, PasObjScan=Routine, PasObjPin=Difficult, 
                PasEngScan=Simple, PasEngPin=Routine
	Off:	Missile=x02, w/ 10 battery rds, BLaser=x02, In Shared Turret
	Def:	DefDM=+3, SCaster=x03, Also in Shared Turret
	Control:Computer=2x3, Panel=Holodynamic link x 72, Special=HoloHUD x 1,
                Environ (Excludes Fuel Tanks)= basic env, basic ls, extended ls
                grav plates, inertial comp, AirLocks=1
	Accomm:	Crew=1(Pilot/Navigator/Engineer=1, (Gunnery=1)), Staterooms=4,
                SubCraft=Speeder
	Other:	Cargo=258kl, Fuel=482kl, Scoops, PurificationPlant=29h, 
                ObjSize=Average, EMLevel=Moderate

	The Vargr Scout is often used for exploration by Vargr navies,
	corporations and individuals.

VARGR COURIER
	CraftID:Courier, Type VX, TL14, MCr 86.633
	Hull:	180/450, Disp=200, Config=1AF, Armor=40G, Unloaded=1445tons, 
                Loaded=2498tons
	Power:	19/25, Fusion=1710MW, Duration=22/68
	Loco:	22/29, Manuever=3, 13/18, Jump=4, NOE=180, Cruise=1924, 
                Top=2565, Agility=0
	Commo:	Radio=System
	Sensors:PassiveEMS=Interstellar, ActiveEMS=FarOrbit, Neutrino=10kW, 
                ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine, PasEngScan=Simple, 
                PasEngPin=Routine
	Off:	BLasers=x03, Batt=1, Bear=1
	Def:	DefDM=+5
	Control:Computer=4x2, Panel=Holodynamic link x 139, Special=HoloHUD x 1
                Environ (Excludes Fuel Tanks)= basic env, basic ls, extended ls
                grav plates, inertial comp, AirLocks=1
	Accomm:	Crew=3(Bridge=1, Engineering=1, Medic=1), Staterooms=5, 
                SubCraft=30t ShipsBoat
	Other:	Cargo=68kl, Fuel=1188kl, Scoops, PurificationPlant=71h, 
                ObjSize=Average, EMLevel=Moderate

	This ship is use by the special Vargr class of 'Emmisaries'. They
	use it to carry decrees, messages and diplomatic missions all over
	the Extents. The armament is for self defence only and the lasers
	are often traded for sandcasters to increase agility.

Unfortunately I haven't found any info on the Price of the following vehicles,
but since they are strictly Military Issue it is of no concern 8^)

IMPERIAL MARINES ISHKIIAKIM AFGV
	CraftID:Ishkiiakim ArmoredFightingGravVehicle, TL15
	Hull:	118/297, Disp=10, Config=4SL, Armor=40G, Unloaded=87.7tons, 
                Loaded=103.8tons
	Power:	12/16, Fusion=129MW, SolarCells=0.94MW, Duration=17/51
	Loco:	9/12, StdGravThrust=200tons, NOE=190, Cruise=750, Top=1000
	Commo:	Radio=Continental, Maser= Continental
	Sensors:PassiveEMS=Interplanetary, ActiveEMS=Continental, Neutrino=10kW
                Synthetic Vision=2, ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine, 
                PasEngScan=Routine, PasEngPin=Routine
	Off/Def:Missiles=x03, Batt=1, Bear=1, w/ 27missiles, 1 200mm 
                MassDriver, 1 VRF Gauss Gun, The VRF Gauss Gun is capable of
                Point Defence as TL9.
	Control:Computer=1fibx3, Panel=Holodynamic link x 2, 
                Special=HoloHUD x 2, Environ= basic env, basic ls, inertial 
                comp for crews quarters, Airlock=1
	Accomm:	Crew=2(Pilot=1, Commander=1), Seats=Adequate x 4 
                (24h occupancy)
	Other:	Cargo=1kl, Fuel=40kl, ObjSize=Small, EMLevel=Faint

	Specially designed to fit in the IMC dropships, the Ishkiialim AFGV
	is used to provide firesupport to the IMC MFG's	and Commandos. It
	is considered a mobile artillery gun with some vehicle-to-vehicle
	combat capability. The ballistic trajectory of the rounds enables
	it to hide behind mountains and other obstructions that will prevent
	the conventional energy and laserweapons from firing back.

IMPERIAL MARINES GUKAKHAADAR APGC
	CraftID:Gukakhaadar ArmoredPersonellGravCarrier, TL15
	Hull:	108/270, Disp=10, Config=4SL, Armor=20G, Unloaded=23.1tons, 
                Loaded=49.0tons
	Power:	12/16, Fusion=6MW, SolarCells=0.94MW, Duration=46/138
	Loco:	9/12, StdGravThrust=100tons, NOE=190, Cruise=750, Top=1000
	Commo:	Radio=Continental, Maser= Continental
	Sensors:PassiveEMS=Interplanetary, ActiveEMS=Continental, 
                Synthetic Vision=2, ActObjScan=Routine, ActObjPin=Routine,
                PasEngScan=Routine
	Off/Def:1 VRF Gauss Gun, 2 Twinmounted 4cm RAM Auto GL-11's, 
                The VRF Gauss Gun is capable of Point Defence as TL9.
	Control:Computer=1fibx3, Panel=Holodynamic link x 2, Special=HUD x 2, 
                Environ= basic env, basic ls, inertial comp for crew areas and 
                hold, Airlock=1
	Accomm:	Crew=2(Pilot=1, Commander=1), Seats=Adequate x 16 
                (or "x 8" with 24h occupancy)
	Other:	Cargo=25kl, Fuel=10kl, ObjSize=Small, EMLevel=Faint

	This is the other vehicle designed for the IMC dropships. It is 
	capable of wreaking havoc among most TL-15 infantry by using its 
	VRF GG and RAM Auto to spray the enemy infantry while it uses its
	speed and agility to keep out of harms way.

MBGT-X
	CraftID:Experimental MainBattleGravTank, TL15
	Hull:	118/297, Disp=12, Config=5SL, Armor=72G, Unloaded=614tons, 
                Loaded=103.8tons
	Power:	12/16, Fusion=306MW, Duration=10/29
	Loco:	9/12, StdGravThrust=1171tons, NOE=190, Cruise=750, Top=1000
	Commo:	Radio=Continental, Maser= Continental x 2
	Sensors:EMMask, PassiveEMS=Interplanetary x 2, ActiveEMS=Continental, 
                Neutrino=10kW x 2, Synthetic Vision=2, ActObjScan=Routine, 
                ActObjPin=Routine, PasEngScan=Routine, PasEngPin=Routine
	Off/Def:200mm MassDriver x 1, VRF Gauss Gun x 1, The VRF Gauss Gun is 
                capable of Point Defence as TL15, 2 18cm MRLs.
	Control:Computer=4x2, Panel=Holodynamic link x 1, Special=HoloHUD x 1,
                Environ= basic env, basic ls, grav plates, inertial comp for 
                crew areas, Airlock=1
	Accomm:	Crew=2(Pilot=1, Commander=1), Seats=Adequate x 4 
                (24h occupancy)
	Other:	Cargo=1kl, Fuel=40kl, ObjSize=Small, EMLevel=Faint

	This vehicle is presently just a experimental model designed by a
	small upstart company in the Spinward Marches (Machinetools Inc).
	They are advocating heavy massdrivers for groundcombat and anti-
	landingforces-fire. 

IMPERIAL MARINES OPEN TOP AIR/RAFT
	CraftID:Open-Top Air/Raft, TL15
	Hull:	21/54, Disp=2, Config=1USL, Armor=22G, Unloaded=2.3tons, 
                Loaded=5.8tons
	Power:	8/16, Fusion=1.5MW, Duration=60/180
	Loco:	6/12, StdGravThrust=8.0tons, NOE=190, Cruise=225, Top=300
	Commo:	Radio=Planetary
	Sensors:PassiveEMS=VDistant, ActiveEMS=VDistant, ActObjScan=Difficult,
                ActObjPin=Difficult, PasEngScan=Formidable
	Off/Def:4 Pintel Mounts for 7mm Gatlng or 4cm RAM Auto Grenade Launcher
	Control:Computer=0 x 2, Panel=Holodynamic link x 5, Environ= basic env
	Accomm:	Crew=1(Operator=1), Seats=Adequate x 6
	Other:	Cargo=3.4kl, Fuel=3.3kl, ObjSize=Small, EMLevel=Faint

	Standard open-top air/raft modifyed for military service. It has 
	increased armor and comes equipped with 4 pintelmounts. This vehicle
	is popular with the IMC Commandos who use it as a cheap gunship on
	counter-insurgency missions.

Tha-tha-tha-tha-thats all folks.
- -- 
Bertil K K Jonell @ Chalmers University of Technology, Gothenburg
NET: d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se 
VOICE: +46 31 723971 / +46 300 61004     "Don't worry,I've got Pilot-7"
SNAILMAIL: Box 154,S-43900 Onsala,SWEDEN      (Famous last words)      
"There's Medellin. Drugs 'R Us, all in that one little city in the valley.
One nuke could settle things..." Tom Clancy 'Clear and Present Danger'





-------- TML Message #737 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 737
Date: Thu, 30 Nov 89 12:35:40 PST
From: (John Redden) redden@ttidca.tti.COM
Subject: cosmos-11



More varaint rules, very different from trav ship construction but in
spired by the original rules.  Computer programs to do this and much more
comming.

Designed to work with any machine like object (tank, robot and so on).
Missiles are considered to be small starships.


COSMOS Starship Components

These are the building blocks for cosmos ships from about tech level 8
to about tech level 30.  Past 30 "starships" are a quaint oddity.

Basic Parameters
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
ln: logrithm base e

TL: Incremental measurement of technological level that constructed the 
    object.

Fuss: Fusion technology.

E-to-M: Direct energy-to-matter technology.

Emass: The objects (vessels) mass devoted to energy production.

Eunits: the total energy units available to the vessel.
        Eunits = ln(TL-8) * Emass

Ecur-units: the number of energy units currently allocated to an objects
	    effect.  It is the division of Eunits to various ship systems.

FEFmass: mass for Eunits of fusion and partial fusion/E-to-M energy units
	 FEFmass = Emass * 40/ln(TL)**2

INTcomp: The current or dedicated intelligence of the computer for this
	 effect (of the object)

PSI: Psionic base of the computer system.
PSS: Psionic strength of the computer system.
PSR: Psionic resistance of the computer system.
PNERV: Computer primary nervous system (like humanoid STR).
SNERV: Computer secondary nervous system (like humanoid DEX).

     See Characteristics for further definition.  There will be a set
     of these for *each* computer system.

BSM: basic total ship mass.

TSM: the total ship mass including the cargo.

DENS: density of the ship in percentage.
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Combat parameters

OCV: offensive combat rating of the object as related to starship combat.

      INTcomp can be derived from a dedicated computer system (for offensive
      systems) or have shared intelligence with a multi-purpose system (see
      discussion on computers).

OCVmass: mass of offensive combat system

     OCVmass = ln(TL-7) * 7 / TL
     OCVbase = INTcomp * ln(TL-7)
     OCV = INTcomp * ln(TL-7) + Ecur-units + Weapons-systems-skills +
	   Tactical skills

ORM: offensive range modifier.
     short range: 0 <= range <= 100*OCV (current OCV is multiplied X 2)
     mid range:   100 <= range <= 10000*OCV (current OCV is multiplied X 1)
     long range: 10000 <= range <= 100000*OCV (current OCV is multiplied X .5)

ODV: offensive damage delivered by the weapon system.

ODVprox: proximity damage by exploding object.  Note each missile counts
         as a seperate ship.  

EXplr: the explosion ratio of a self destructing object.  Related also to
       the density of the object.

EXplr = ln(TL-6) * Eunits * TSM * DENS

       for missiles this is typically 100%, for a "nonrigged" starcruiser
       about 25%.  In this case Eunits are energy units dedicated to the
       explosion.  It is considered a static amount.

ODVen: damage delivered by energy weapons

NOW: number of energy weapon systems

     ODVenbase = ln(TL-8) * NOW
     ODVen = ln(TL-8) + Ecur-units * NOW

ODVenmass: mass of energy weapons.

	   ODVenmass = NOW / ln(TL)

DCV: is the ability of an object to avoid damage via an energy/mass field.

      INTcomp can be derived from a dedicated computer system (for defensive
      systems) or have shared intelligence with a multi-purpose system (see
      discussion on computers).

     DCVbase = INTcomp * ln(TL-7)
     DCV = INTcomp * ln(TL-7) +Ecur-units + Tactics-skill

DCVmass: mass of defensive energy systems

         DCVmass = ln(TL-7)

DSC: is the ships hard defensive screens
     
     DSCbase = ln(TL-10) * ln(TL)
     DSC = ln(TL-10) * Ecur-units * ln(TL)

DSCmass: mass of hard defensive screens

     DSCmass = ln(TL-10) * 10 / TL
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ship movement and gravatics

MADGcurr: is an energy based, non-gravatic maneuver drive based in Gs.

MADmass: the maneuver drive mass (assigned during ship construction).
     
     MADGbase = ln(TL-8) * MADmass * 5 / TSM
     MADGcurr = ln(TL-8) * MADmass * 5 * Ecur-units / TSM

CGunits: the exchangeable units of produced by a contragravity unit.  A unit
         that produces 100 units could move 100 tons at 1G, 200 tons at .5G
 	 etc.

CGmass: the contra gravity units mass.

CGrange: the range of the contra gravity device in kilometers.
	 
	 there are 3 (known) contra gravity technologies available:

Fuss:
	 CGunits = CGmass * (TL-9) * ln(TL)
	 CGrange = CGmass

Fuss/partial M-to-E:	 
	 CGunits = CGmass * (TL-14) * (TL-14) * ln(TL) * Ecur-units
	 CGrange = CGmass * (Ecur-units)**2

M-to-E:n
	 CGunits = CGmass * (TL-18) * (TL-18) * ln(TL) * ln(TL) * Ecur-units
	 CGrange = CGmass * (ln(TL))**2 * Ecur-units

JU: the hyperspace jump capabilities of the ship.  There are three 
    (known) hyperspace jump technologies.  JU1 is a point-to-point 
    hyperspace jump with fixed time.  JU2 is a point-to-point hyperspace
    jump with variable time.  JU3 is a variable hyperspace jump with
    variable time.  Normally JU is measured in parsecs.  Actually JU3 is
    the same as JUpar.  

INTcompJU: the minimum intelligence of the computer required for each 
           parsec travelled for JU1 and JU2.  For JUpar it defines the
           minimum computer intelligence required for the number of 
	   parsecs per hour.

	   INTcompJU = 1/ln(TL)

JUtime: timing interval of the hyperspace jump in 20 hour days.

JUmass: mass of the jump drive.

JUbase: constant part of JU calculation

JUpar: jump in parsecs per hour

Fuss:
    JUbase1 = ln(TL) * (TL-9) / TSM (or BSM)

    JU1 = Ecur-units * JUbase1

    JUtime1 = 7 days
    
    JUmass1 = JUbase1 * 100 / ln(TL)

Fuss/partial M-to-E:
    JUbase2 - ln(TL) * (TL-14) / TSM (or BSM)

    JU2 = Ecur-units * JUbase2 * JUtime2

    JUtime2 = time in "local" days in hyperspace

    JUmass2 = JUbase2 * 100 / ln(TL)

M-to-E:
    JUbase3 = ln(TL) * (TL-18) / TSM (or BSM)

    JUpar = Ecur-units * JUbase3

    JUmass3 = JUbase3 * 10 / ln(TL)

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Life support, internal energy systems and floor space

SCsum: The total size of creatures in equation.  Take 6.41 as the average
	human large sized person. (see size ratios)

ISYSeunits: energy used by internal energy systems (life support, 
	    communications, low and high resolution scanners).

ISYSmass: mass of internal energy systems.

	    ISYSeunits = SCsum / ln(TL)

	    ISYSmass = ISYSeunits

CRYeunits: energy units used by cryogenic systems.

CRYmass: mass of cryogenic system.

	    CRYeunits = SCsum / (ln(TL)**2)

	    CRYmass = CRYeunits

FLmass: mass of all cabins, bridges, floorspace, equipment, cargo bays and
	the like.

FLsq3: all floor space in cubic meters for the ship.

       FLmass = FLsq3 / (27 * ln(TL))
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------    
Scanning, communications and observing

SClong: long range scanning and communications.

SCldist: distance of long range scanning and communications.

SCshort: short range (detailed) scanning and communications.
	 
	 SCsbase = INTcomp * ln(TL-7)
	 SCshort = INTcomp * ln(TL-7) + Ecur-units + FWD-Observer-skill
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ship Hull

HUmass: Ship hall mass

HUDV: Ship hull defensive value.

Hpips: HUDV in hit points.

	HUDV = ln(TL-7) * HUmass / 100

All opinions and material above is the responsibility of the originator.
Submissions: traveller@dadla.wr.tek.com, or uunet!dadla.wr.tek.com!traveller
Administrator: traveller-request@dadla.wr.tek.com (James Perkins)
The TML is made possible by facilities provided by Tektronix, Inc.

-------- TML Message #738 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 738
Subject: Administrivia
Date: 05 Dec 89 09:01:47 PST (Tue)
From: jamesp



The list has been ominously quiet lately.  Everyone must be out doing
their holiday shopping.  I suspect it may be pretty slow this month.  Oh
well, over the last 9 months we've averaged around 50 messages/month!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Traveller Mailing List Administrator	  James T. Perkins @ Tektronix, Inc
traveller-request@dadla.wr.tek.com	  Beaverton, Oregon, USA
uunet!dadla.wr.tek.com!traveller-request  "Load Auto/Evade, Beowulf!"



-------- TML Message #739 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 739
Subject: holidays
Date: Tue Dec  5 14:25:09 1989
From: richard@agora.hf.intel.COM (Richard Johnson)



Do any of you put holidays into your campaigns?  Local customs can
be exciting and dangerous...


Richard




-------- TML Message #740 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 740
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 89 19:46 EST
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: I love a good SF story, don't you? Yeah, too bad this isn't one.


PART 2

Deep space, between Suleiman and Easter in the Solomani Rim 

	O'Connor drifted gently down the black corridor, controlling his 
motion with an occasional gentle touch of a nearby wall. His suit light 
splashed emptily on the walls and vanished into the darkness up ahead. His 
breath, loud in his ears, was deep and measured, utterly calm. The few lonely 
wads of human tissue remaining in his brain idly interacted with the
efficient, smoothly functioning machines as he simultaneously scanned the 
corridor ahead, kept up a running dialogue with Hector, and listened to the 
voices and data inputs from his friends, elsewhere in the huge, dead ship.
	*Hector, give me telemetry.*
	|drift velocity point nine nine six average for the interstellar 
medium in this section of space angular velocity point zero zero zero zero 
zero four one nine radians per second yaw motion zero point zero pitch motion 
zero point zero|
	"Magnificent work. Huge, glorious in design, and utterly bereft."
	*Sufficient. Where are the others?*
	"Look at this! Sheared off like a giant wirecutter came through!"
	|specify|
	*Grant.*
	"Well, it's a pretty little theoretical problem, anyway; there are no 
holes in the walls, no sign of an explosion--"
	|captain grant is on the bridge at his station do you wish to initiate 
voice communication|
	"--and no signs of tampering, but both drives and the plant are just, 
well, GONE. Like they were never installed!"
	*No, but thanks for asking.*
	"This is thssssrreerrrkkk amazing thing I've evrrrk skkkssrrkkk...."
	|my pleasure next specification|
	*Jaeger.*
	|mister jaeger is filming the interior of the rotating section and 
offloading data to me at a high rate of speed|
	*Patch my eye into the data stream, let's see what he's got.*
	|executing|
	Alien buttresses, rising toward a domed, black sky uncluttered with 
useless stars, trestles upon trestles like a vast, obscene cathedral, the view 
of the lens turning over and over, dizzied by the heights, falling....
	*Okay, I've seen enough. Terminate sequence.*
	|terminated|
	"No neutrino emissions, no neutron flux, nothing! Helen Damnation!"
	*Where's Kherk?*
	|team leader kherkhoulloth is currently exploring the empty water 
tanks in the forward section his signal is muffled by the heavy shielding in 
that section of the ship i am experiencing intermittency difficulties do you 
wish me to boost gain|
	"The portskkkkkrrrk is tHE SAME OLD--"
	*Negative, I can hear him well enough in here. Sanchez?*
	"--STOry, no sign of any srrrrrrkkkkkkkk...."
	|chief engineer sanchez is still examining the power deck|
	*And I thought I had a one-track mind....*
	|incorrect you are point nine one synaptic|
	*No kidding.* O'Connor sighed. It was the first sound he'd made in 
over three hours.
	"Daryavayush? That you?"
	O'Connor noted the tone of concern in Grant's voice. "Yes, sir," he 
replied easily, reaching out to grasp the edge of the portal leading into the 
forward section of the ship. "I'm entering the forward section."
	"Keep in touch. I'd hate to be the threat that ran into you, but 
regular voice contact will keep me from getting old before my time."
	O'Connor smiled mirthlessly. "As you wish, sir. Should I set my 
internal time system to prod me once per hour?"
	Now it was Grant's turn to sigh. "Why couldn't that shell have taken 
out the part of your brain that controls sarcasm?"
	O'Connor's grin widened a tiny bit. "It did, sir," he said pleasantly. 
"I am always literal and serious. You must have realized that by now."
	"Yeah, right. Stay on the line. Sanchez?"
	No answer.
	"SANCHEZ!"
	"YO! Uh, I mean, yessir?"
	"Wake up, dammit! I'm putting together a net line. Jaeger?"
	"Right here."
	"How's your masterpiece coming along?"
	"Impressively. The Hivers built well. I wonder what happened here?"
	"I may have figured it out. Kherk?"
	"Yeah, Captain, I'm here. Boosting my gain."
	"Good. Listen up, people. Hector's come up with a possible correlation 
between known traffic and lost ships in the area and this hulk."
	*Why didn't you tell ME that?*
	|you did not ask|
	"Thirteen Imperial years ago, a Hiver research vessel vanished in this 
section of space. It had a crew of over four hundred Hivers, and get this: It 
was doing research on the Jump-6 barrier!"
	"Hmm. That'd explain a lot. I've heard of Jump drives tearing through 
the hull, but never just vanishing off their mounts!"
	"But what happened to the crew?"
	"No Hivers, living or dead. No equipment at all. Everything stripped 
to the bare walls. My guess is that they cannibalized the entire ship to turn 
their subsidiary craft into lifeboats. I wonder if...hey, Kherk, I'm losing 
your signal!"
	"Oh, don't worry, Captain! I jsssk wanted to finish chhshhh these 
stupid whhhhhkkkkkkks before heading back to th--"
	His voice ended abruptly.
	O'Connor waited for the return of his signal. It didn't come.
	|medical alert team leader kherkhoulloth's vital signs are increasing 
on an exponential curve indicative of severe stress and fear i cannot maintain 
his signal|
	"KYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIII!"
	*Where is he?*
	"Kherk! We heard a scream, what's wrong?"
	|forward section extreme starboard water tank direction map follows|
	"Ca, Ca, C-C-CAP, CAPTAIN! SANCHEZ, O'CONNOR, EVERYBODY!"
	*Received. On my way.*
	O'Connor shut his cybernetic eye, allowing the mapped route through 
the twisting corridors to play out inside his skull. He kicked in the 
thrusters on his suit, and rocketed across the open expanse of the forward 
section at a dangerously high speed for such an enclosed space.
	"HELP! FIRE! MURDER!"
	"O'CONNOR! Kherk's in trouble!"
	"On my way, sir." O'Connor executed a neat turn and braked to a halt 
by the corridor leading to the water tanks, in what once had been the belly of 
the ship. He saw a frantically weaving headlamp rushing toward him at 
breakneck speed, and quickly reached out a restraining arm, grabbing hold of 
the edge of the portal with the other.
	"HYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA--OOF!" The metal arm caught Kherkhoulloth hard in 
the chest, dragging him roughly to a halt. Through the silvered glass of his 
helmet O'Connor could see the frantic stare of the screeching Vargr, the foam 
on his chops. He took a half second to review what little he knew about battle
hysteria in Vargr, decided he had insufficient data for a suitable response, 
and shrugged. With a mighty heave, he slammed Kherkhoulloth hard against the 
nearest wall.
	The clang reverberated through the walls of the ship and could be 
heard through the micorphone in Kherkhoulloth's helmet. After a moment, his 
struggles ceased, and he drew a long, shuddering breath.
	"Thanks. I'm okay now," he managed shakily. "Let go of me!"
	*Hector?*
	|vital signs returning to normal limits albeit slowly|
	"What's going on over there, dammit! O'Connor?"
	"I have Kherk, sir. He's badly frightened but not hurt."
	"Tell that to my ribs, you walking rust heap!"
	"What the hell made him scream like that?"
	"Unknown. No immediate threat in evidence."
	"No, no! It's okay, I'm sorry I scared everyone, I was just really 
startled out of my wits. You'd better come and see this, Daryavayush...."
He led the way back to an open, black hole in the deck, O'Connor following 
with gun drawn. Kherkhoulloth pointed down into the hole.
	"Down there. It's horrible!"
	*Patch my eye to Jaeger's camera. I want this recorded.*
	|executing|
	"O'Connor, this is Jaeger. Is that your view I'm seeing now?"
	"Yes. Keep it recording, Iscin." O'Connor knelt by the hole, reached
down, and gently propelled himself down into the opening. Every member of the
crew heard his sudden intake of breath. 
	"What the hell can scare O'Connor?"
	"I don't want to know."
	"No, you don't." Kherkhoulloth shivered. "You really don't."
	O'Connor stepped forward, regarding the corpse carefully. It was a 
human, adult, probably female, and any information beyond that wouldn't be 
easy to ascertain. The body had been nailed spreadeagled to the inside of the 
tank wall, upside down, and had been systematically flayed apart inch by inch. 
It must have taken her days to die, he thought grimly. And as to how it had 
felt... he gently touched the jaw, felt it move slackly even in rigor mortis. 
She had screamed so loudly she'd dislocated her jaw right out of its socket.
The dead eyes hung from their sockets, exploded in the vacuum. The flesh was 
utterly frozen, but before it had chilled her lifeblood had flowed over the 
deck and dried in a sickening brown pool.
	It was then that O'Connor saw the next corpse. It was an Aslan male, 
his fur torn out in fistfuls, tail half sawn away, bowels raked out. The man's 
eyes were shut tight, his jaw frozen shut: even in his agony he wouldn't cry 
out. Beside him there was another human. And another. And another....
	His eyes flicked around the inside of the tank, counting. Ten, eleven, 
twelve, thirteen-- wait a minute! The last corpse was that of a Droyne, its 
wings carefully shredded into bloody ribbons and tied into knots, its scales 
pulled out one by one, every joint bent backward and broken. A single spar of 
metal was driven through its skull, and its mouth was bound bulgingly shut 
with a tangle of computer cable. O'Connor gently undid the cable and pried the 
mouth open, suddenly curious. The others were allowed to scream; this one...?
	Slowly, floating eerily in the zero gravity, a stream of gold disks 
floated out of the stretched, bloody mouth, one, two, three dozen of them. 
	O'Connor gently gathered them out of the air and put them away in a 
pocket. The one blank spot on the wall, right behind the ladder, came aglow 
under the light of his headlamp: a series of lines of text, scrawled crudely 
in blood.
	"O'Connor? Are you all right?"
	He didn't answer. Instead, he looked closer, trying to make out the 
words. As his eyes followed the text, he heard Jaeger reading aloud....
	
	"Here they lie, victims of his sense of humor
	 They thought they had all the answers
	 What they got wasn't what they expected
	 He is alone and yet with each and all of us
	 He is strong, angry, mighty in triumph
	 He was human once, and still is, mostly--
	 What's left, we're working on.

	 Hi ho."

	O'Connor straightened up. "We're going to need coldsleep capsules to
preserve the bodies," he said coolly. "Back away from the opening, Kherk, I'm 
coming out."
	"Bodies? WHAT bodies?"
	"Uh, 'Hi ho'?"
	"Would somebody please tell me WHAT'S GOING ON?"
	O'Connor drifted up into the hallway, and met Kherkhoulloth's troubled 
eyes. "We're coming back, sir," he said softly. "We'll have visuals to show 
you, and a full report. But you aren't going to like it."
	And as he turned to seek the way out, Kherkhoulloth leading the way, 
O'Connor wondered idly if he still had the part of his brain that could have
nightmares.
	*And if I do,* he added, *Could I shut it off?*
	|insufficient data|

TO BE CONTINUED



-------- TML Message #741 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 741
From: (Jo Jaquinta) jaymin@maths.tcd.ie
Subject: Deck Plan Program -- partner required
Date: Tue, 5 Dec 89 17:24:04 GMT


	I am nearly finished the first half of a starship deck plan
	creating program. At this stage I would like to hand development
	onto some programmer with a larger variety of output devices.

	The program takes as its input various info from the starship
	description (e.g. message 736) and produces a series of rectangular
	solids, each containing some subsystem of the ship.

	What needs to be done is for someone to takes these three dimensional
	blocks and represent them meaninfully on screen, plotter, printer
	or whatever suits their fancy. 

	I am heading off for Christmas on 15th December so anyone interested
	and wanting to get a head start over Christmas please contact
	me before then.
				-- Jo Jaquinta
				jaymin@maths.tcd.ie

Io, the greek goddess of input and output. -- D. E. Knuth



-------- TML Message #742 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 742
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 89 14:29 PST
From: ("Scott, part time fuzzy") SELLSWORTH@hmcvax.claremont.edu


  Hello all.

  Has anyone looked at Gurps Space?  I like the traveller universe and the
"feel" of it, but I dislike the ways skills are handled, as well as the
horrendously inefficient fusion/AM plants.  (for example: an atomic missle is
going to do much, much more damage than a conventional one.  Likewise, an
antimatter missle could easily build up stellar catastrophe size in a
relatively small space.)

  I was thinking of adapting the standard task system to the Gurps style rules,
then implementing most of the features of the travelller starships in gurps
terms and playing in the standard imperium.  It could be very interesting.

  Anyhow, if anyone has any ideas, let me know.  (Note to the star system
generation folks: the machine that I can usually talk to you from is not
letting me at the moment.  This will be fixed by the time I get back in Jan.)

  (James:Congrats on the success of the TML.  Impressive.)

  See you all.

  Scott Ellsworth
  sellswor@jarthur.claremont.edu
  SELLSWORTH@HMCVAX



-------- TML Message #743 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 743
Date: Fri, 8 Dec 89 07:21:31 PST
From: (John Redden) redden@ttidca.tti.COM
Subject: Cosmos 12



Second in a series of alternate rules on starhips.  Inspired by 
progammability in original travller rules.

___________________________________________________________________________


Basic starship operation

The operational parameters for different tech level star ships are
different.  Some may be present in one technology and not present in
another.  Common to tech level 8 to tech level 30 ships are the number
of Eunits that the chip can generate.  Thus each ship has a number of
Eunits that are available for *variable* functions of the ship.  The
distribution of Eunits to various ship functions should conform to a
number of predefined configurations or programs.  Starships may be
reconfigured during the movement phase of the round.

There are number of Variables that are programmed for a configuration:

OCV ODVen EXPL DCV  DSC MADG CGunits CGrange JU SCshort

When the starship is constructed there are a number of total Eunits
for ship consumption from one or more Energy generators.  Some Eunits
must be dedicated to internal systems (ISYSeunits) others go into
these programmable variables.  These Eunits are assigned to the
variables so one or more actions are optimized.

Typical configurations might be:

Green One subspace: 5% OCV 5% ODVen 5% DCV 15% DSC 25% MADG
                10% CGunits 0% JU 10% SCshort 25% reserve.
Normal subspace programming with energy reserve.

Green Two subspace: 5% OCV 5% ODVen 5% DCV 5% DSC 50% MADG
          25% CGunits 0% JU 5% SCshort 0% reserve.
Fast movement subspace programming.

Green One hyperspace: 5% OCV 5% ODVen 5% DCV 5% DSC 5% MADG
		  5% CGunits 30% JU 5% SCshort 35% reserve.
Normal hyperspace programming with energy reserve.

Green Two hyperspace: 0% OCV 0% ODVen 0% DCV 0% DSC 0% MADG
		  5% CGunits 90% JU 5% SCshort 0% reserve.
Fast hyperspace programming.

Yellow one: 12% OCV 12% ODVen 12% DCV 12% DSC 12% MADG
	    12% CGunits 0% JU 5% SCshort 23% reserve.
Balanced defense and offense with reserve.

Yellow two: 25% OCV 12% ODVen 12% DCV 25% DSC 5% MADG
	    5% CGunits 0% JU 5% SCshort 12% reserve.
Defense with greater offense.

Yellow three: 25% OCV 12% ODVen 23% DCV 25% DSC 5% MADG
	      5% CGunits 0% JU 5% SCshort 0% reserve.
Defense with high level of offense.

Red one: 10% OCV 5% ODVen 30% DCV 30% DSC 10% MADG
	 0% CGunits 0% JU 0% SCshort 15% Reserve.
Offense with greater defense.

Red two: 15% OCV 5% ODVen 35% DCV 35% DSC 10% MADG
	 0% CGunits 0% JU 0% SCshort 0% reserve.
Offense with high level of defense.

Red three: 0% OCV 0% ODVen 50% DCV 45% DSC 5% MADG
	   0% CGunits 0% JU 0% SCshort 0% reserve.
Maximal defense.

Black one:  35% OCV 40% ODVen 5% DCV 5% DSC 5% MADG
	      5% CGunits 0% JU 5% SCshort 0% reserve.
Maximal offense.

Grey one: 10% OCV 10% ODVen 10% DCV 10% DSC 10% MADG
	  10% CGunits 10% JU 10% SCshort 20% reserve.
Equal spread of energy.

White one: 90% EXPL 10% MADG
Missile or self destruct with maximum explosion damage.

Blue one: low OCV low ODVen low ODVprox low DCV mid DSC low MADG
          high CGunits nil JU high SCshort (and a reserve of Eunits)
Maximize probing and sensors.




-------- TML Message #744 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 744
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 89 03:11:18 EST
From: (wilson m liaw) macgyver@cis.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Cyberware



	Has anyone use any cybertech stuff with Traveller adventures? I am
planning on writing an article on it. Thanks for any input...

				Mac



-------- TML Message #745 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 745
Date: Sun, 10 Dec 89 03:16:26 EST
From: (wilson m liaw) macgyver@cis.ohio-state.edu
Subject: MegaTraveller Computer Game.



	Oh yea, before I forget. There is a computer Role playing game under
development at this point. It's due out in the first quarter of 1990. It's
a IBM PC game. I will be based on MegaTraveller, more on this later.

			Mac



-------- TML Message #746 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 746
Subject: computer games
Date: Mon Dec 11 18:21:18 1989
From: richard@agora.hf.intel.COM (Richard Johnson)



Anyone out there care to comment on existing space-oriented computer
games?  I have two: "Star Command" and "Sentinel Worlds".  Both seem
kind of fun, but I can't play them without thinking what fun it would
be to have a real MT-type space game.
	Richard




-------- TML Message #747 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 747
From: (Adrian Hurt) adrian%cs.heriot-watt.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
Subject: computer games
Date: Tue, 12 Dec 89 10:05:12 BST


Richard Johnson writes:

> Anyone out there care to comment on existing space-oriented computer
> games?  I have two: "Star Command" and "Sentinel Worlds".  Both seem
> kind of fun, but I can't play them without thinking what fun it would
> be to have a real MT-type space game.

Have you ever seen "Elite"?  Originally written for the British BBC Micro, this
game has been converted for a range of machines, including IBM PC, C-64 and
Atari ST.  You are the pilot of a small starship; your objective is to go
around trading in various commodities (some illegal), make money, and upgrade
your ship.  You also get attacked by various bad guys, namely pirates and the
alien Thargoids.  There are missions to accomplish, which you are given as the
game progresses.  The trading, and some of the planetary data, bears some
resemblance to Traveller.

Another such game is "Federation Of Free Traders", written for the Atari ST and
Amiga.  I don't know if it's available in the U.S.A.  Like "Elite", you are a
space trader out to make money and kill things.  The planetary data is pure
Traveller format, though the galaxies supplied bear no resemblance to any
published Traveller sectors.  This game isn't as good as "Elite", as the prices
of goods don't change much between planets, even very different planets; and
the opposition doesn't act as intelligently.

Both these games are more "arcadish" than the ones Richard mentioned, in that
they involve more shooting and less strategy.  But they feature some nice solid
3-D graphics, and involve a lot more than just going around shooting things.

 "Keyboard? How quaint!" - M. Scott

 Adrian Hurt			     |	JANET:  adrian@uk.ac.hw.cs
 UUCP: ..!ukc!cs.hw.ac.uk!adrian     |  ARPA:   adrian@cs.hw.ac.uk



-------- TML Message #748 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 748
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 89 10:18:10 EST
From: (Greg Givler - PA) givler@cbmvax.commodore.COM
Subject: Re:  computer games


[Whole pile of included header lines from Adrian's message deleted - James]

>Richard Johnson writes:

>> Anyone out there care to comment on existing space-oriented computer
>> games?  I have two: "Star Command" and "Sentinel Worlds".  Both seem
>> kind of fun, but I can't play them without thinking what fun it would
>> be to have a real MT-type space game.

Adrian Hurt writes:

>Have you ever seen "Elite"?  Originally written for the British BBC Micro, this
>game has been converted for a range of machines, including IBM PC, C-64 and
>Atari ST.  You are the pilot of a small starship; your objective is to go

It is also now out for the Amiga, although I have not seen it.

>Both these games are more "arcadish" than the ones Richard mentioned, in that
>they involve more shooting and less strategy.  But they feature some nice solid
>3-D graphics, and involve a lot more than just going around shooting things.

I have the 64 version, and it is what I consider a "shoot 'em up" Arcade game.
It is tough, in that you start with no money and are a real easy target.

I do like how the ship handles it is like a real space ship. You have yaw and 
pitch. So it takes some getting used to. The thing I hate the most is the
docking. You have this space station that spins on you have to match its 
rotation and then get in the damn bay entrance cleanly or you die. Nothing 
worse than fighting of all these pirates just to blow up trying to dock.

Greg

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greg Givler                        | Q-Link: GregGivler
Analyst - Systems Evaluation Group | CompuServe: Greg Givler 76702,647
Commodore Product Assurance        | GEnie: G.Givler
215-431-9100                       | The NET: givler@cbmvax.cbm.commodore.com
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Wild Whores couldn't keep me away!" -- George Fransisco
"That's Horses, George" -- Matt Sikes -- Alien Nation --  Fox Broadcasting --
===============================================================================



-------- TML Message #749 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 749
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 89 13:01 EST
From: METLAY@vms.cis.pitt.edu
Subject: So long, farewell, auf wiedersehen goodbye....



Alas alackaday!

Hey, gang, my thesis advisor has just informed me that I'm being shipped
off to Oak Ridge for about a month, starting on the day after New Years'.
I'll be back sometime in early February, with luck, and I will of course
immediately reattach myself to the List. But I'm hereby asking James to 
remove me as of the end of the workday Friday, to give me time to clean
up my disks and so forth before I leave. (I have a feeling that just with
my regular mail I'm going to go over quota while I'm gone, and the Oak
Ridge system is restricted, so I can't forward things). I'll be out of here
for vacation on the 20th; if you have anything to ask or say that won't
wait until Groundhog Day or so, catch me now or forever hold your peace.

I wish each and every one of you a safe and happy holiday season.

Dim the lights,

metlay				| HOW TO DIE YOUNG, #999:
Traveller Mailing List Historian| Come back from a month's research trip and 
				| find out that your boss went into your 
metlay@pittvms.BITNET		| Email to find out why you went over quota.
metlay@vms.cis.pitt.EDU		| ("Traveller fiction? WHAT Tra--URK!") |-<





-------- TML Message #750 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 750
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 89 14:30:09 EST
From: (wilson m liaw) macgyver@cis.ohio-state.edu
Subject: Traveller Digest #17



	Has anyone seen the adventure in Traveller Digest #17 yet? In it, it
revealed the Aslan secret! It turns out they are not a major race after all.

				Mac



-------- TML Message #751 --------

Archive-Message-Number: 751
From: wrgate.wr.tek.com!reed.UUCP!oresoft.uu.net!richard@tektronix.TEK.COM (Richard The Writer)
Subject: How long can your fleet endure?
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 89 10:01:53 PDT



I found this in sci.military and thought it would be of interest
to those of you who have active military campaigns (and martial 
players):
	Richard Johnson
- -----------------------------------------
>From: dale@rosevax.Rosemount.COM (Dale Borgeson)

in article <12167@cbnews.ATT.COM>, henry@zoo.toronto.edu (Henry Spencer) says:
> 
> My recollection is that off Vietnam, typical carrier operations were
> something like 7 days "on the line" followed by 4 days off to replenish
> fuel and munitions.
	
	I was in a fighter squadron (VF-114) on the Kitty Hawk from
	1970 to 1973. This included two combat cruises to Vietnam.
	On later crusises (72), the AOE class supply ships (I think
	AOE is the correct ship type) like the Kansas City and
	Sacramento were available for unrep (underway replenishment).
	The AOE carries everything; food, JP-5, avgas, ordinance, spare
	parts, and ship fuel (NSFO & ND):one stop shopping.

	With the AOE the the rate of replenishment was mostly determined
	by ordinance. in 72 we were using a lot of bombs ( > 200 tons/day ).
	We would fly for 12 hours and break for 12 hours. we would
	resupply every three to five days during the non-flying time.
	About every 14 days we would have a stand-down day where we were
	supposed to take it easy but the aircraft maintanence people
	(me) worked even harder because all of the planes were available.
	This would go on for 30 to 60 days ( a line period ) after which
	we would go to SUBIC BAY for 4-5 days of liberty and then go back
	to the line. A cruise lasted 9-12 months.

	The AOEs were huge. THe main deck was at about the same level
	as the hanger deck, which made unrep a little easier. They were
	almost as long as the carrier. There were at least two fuel lines
	and four cargo lines between ships.  The AOE also had a helicopter
	pad aft and a hanger for two CH-46s (I'm not sure about the type,
	it had two rotors fore & aft). The helicopters would take the light
	stuff to the flight deck.

	Mostly we took on bombs. After 2+ hours there would be bombs and
	bomb finn pallets everywhere; in the magazines (full), the mess decks,
	the hanger deck, and the starboard side of the island on the
	roof. After 3-5 days of flying it would be all gone & we'd do
	it again.

	Dale Borgeson
	Rosemount Inc.
	Minneapolis
